Innovating Leadership:
Co-Creating Our Future

Resources:

Marcia’s book is Coach the Person, Not the Problem. It’s available in paperback at https://amzn.to/4sEWtIo, and as an audiobook at https://amzn.to/4uMnbR5.

Her prior book is The Discomfort Zone: How Leaders Turn Difficult Conversations into Breakthroughs. You can find it in paperback at https://amzn.to/40PluVk, and as an audiobook at https://amzn.to/4dGfe9L.

You can also learn a lot more about her work online at https://covisioning.com/.

Our host Maureen Metcalf posts a newsletter every week on LinkedIn. You can subscribe here.

Maureen’s latest book is Innovative Leadership & Followership in the Age of AI. The Kindle version is available at https://amzn.to/44buVz8 .You’ll find further details about it at https://bit.ly/LeaderInAI. Her other 10 books are available on Amazon here.

Other episodes you’ll enjoy:

– Why You Fight Against Your Own Interests with Lord John Alderdice

– Our Emotional Recession: How to Lead When People Are Depleted with Joshua Freedman

– Let’s Talk: Four Steps to Bridging Disagreements with Michael Morrow-Fox

Guest(s):

Guest(s) Bio:

Dr. Marcia Reynolds, president of Covisioning LLC, is endlessly curious about how humans learn and grow. She found coaching to be the best technology we have for accelerating the process of change. She has coached and trained leaders and coaches in 41 countries and has presented at the Harvard Kennedy School, Cornell University, and The National Research University in Moscow. Dr. Reynolds is a pioneer in the coaching profession. She is a founding member and 5th global president of the International Coach Federation. She returned to the board for two years in 2016 where she focused on credentialing requirements and strengthening relationships with coach training schools. She is the Training Director for the Healthcare Coaching Institute and on faculty for the International Coach Academy in Russia and Create China Coaching in China. Global Gurus recognizes her as one of the top 5 coaches in the world. Dr. Reynolds has published 5 books.

Transcript
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MARCIA – Video Baseline

Maureen: [00:00:00] Hi. Welcome to Innovating Leadership co-creating our future. Today we’re gonna be talking about difficult conversations that get positive results with Dr. Marcia Reynolds. You’ll learn how to mentally prepare for conversations as well as what to do while you are in them. So, Marcia, welcome. Thank you for joining us.

Marcia: Thank you, Maureen, for having me here. Is there anything you want to tell us about your background before we jump into the topic? Actually, Maureen, I’ve been curious about what does it take to change people’s behavior to help them improve for decades? So my second master’s, which was a long time ago within adult learning.

I learned how to design training programs for leaders, and they would come to my programs. They’d say, oh, you changed my life. They’d gimme happy faces on the evaluation forms, and then they’d go back and do the same thing they always did. It took me quite a while to discover that there were different ways.

You had to have conversations with [00:01:00] people that made them think. Differently. So it took a long time to find a real path forward. We can memorize and learn behaviors, but they don’t become as innate until we change how we think about it. Right? And I always ask people, so how many things do you know you should be doing even just today that you’re not doing?

So knowing I should do something and it’s the best thing for me doesn’t mean that I’m gonna go out and do it. So that’s a great intro to the first segment, which is looking differently at difficult conversations. So why do we avoid uncomfortable conversations, even when we know they’re important? What I did find that surprised me was that the moment of discomfort when people recognize that what they think they know isn’t serving them and isn’t good. They’re very uncomfortable and it could be embarrassed, could even get angry, but that’s the moment they’re most open to learning. But we [00:02:00] don’t know that. So we’ve been brought up to believe emotions are bad. And so we don’t want them to occur in our conversation. We think learning is motivational and um, I feel good and so I change, which isn’t necessarily the case.

So it’s partially the uncertainty on emotional expression. Has. So most of the time when I coach leaders, they come to me and they say, oh, I have this uncomfortable conversation I have to have. And I say, so what’s gonna happen? And they always think of the worst. Oh, they’re gonna show an emotion and then I won’t know what to do.

You know? So they create this horrible situation before they even go into the conversation because they’re uncomfortable with other people’s emotion. That’s kind of how our human brains function, isn’t it? We are wired to anticipate the worst, so we can prepare for it. We do. We have this thing called a negativity bias where we, we catastrophize.

It’s the worst case scenario, but part of that is. Again, [00:03:00] because we see the emotions as bad. So what you just said instead, we don’t see the good in it. Well, we’ve already judged that an emotional expression is bad. Instead of it just being a, a human going through a human process and it’s the first, we have to even look at what is the belief I’m having about this, an emotion, and then my assumptions, my speculation about the future, about the horrible thing the emotion means. And so if we examine those things, maybe we can start shifting that, oh, with the bad thing and say no. You know, when people show an emotion, they’re actually expressing things that help us get down to the bottom of problems, and we can help resolve the problems and help them move forward.

The first thing is to shift her own judgment around what emotions mean. I love the idea that, one, we see emotions as as bad and uncomfortable. We weren’t taught that emotions were a [00:04:00] good thing. And boy, aren’t we joyful when someone cries in front of us. Great day, honey. I made people cry, although in China I have a, a reputation that oh, if she coaches you, she will make you cry.

And many cultures were brought up. Saying that emotions are bad, you know where that comes from, Maureen? Um, it actually was a couple hundred years ago when there was this big shift in psychology. ’cause it used to be emotions meant a lot. If you look at the Greek philosophers, they talked about the power of emotions.

But when Descartes came in the, I think therefore I am. And all of a sudden it was about the logical brain and everything else didn’t count. Not emotions, not feelings in the body, nothing as if we were robots. I always say, you know, we want our humans to be more like robots, but our robots to be more like human.

Maureen: Interesting. We, we idolize Spock, right?

Marcia: Yes, we do. [00:05:00] And you know, and the whole thing with the, when we hit the industrial revolution. It was about how do we do the catch to see what makes people productive without thinking that maybe it’s about their social relationships and how comfortable they feel that would make them productive, not the lighting and the things they sit on.

So we have this like idea that people can actually go about their days just thinking and not feeling, which, well, even when I say it, doesn’t that sound crazy?

Maureen: It really does. And that’s where the Gallup folks did such a good job of looking at engagement and saying, if I don’t have a best friend at work, but if I don’t have trusting strong relationships with people who will look out for my best interest, it’s hard to feel safe enough to do the risky, my guess. When I say risky, I don’t mean catching the building on fire, but I do mean simple stuff like trying new behaviors.

Marcia: Absolutely. We don’t take risks. Well, and these days, the younger [00:06:00] generations, they just leave. They go find a job somewhere else. So it’s not just about engagement, it’s about turnover.

If I’m not comfortable and I don’t like where I work, it totally affects what I do. And even Google did this study. Over a number of years, they were looking at their most effective teams, their high performing teams, and they were wanting to know what is it that they do differently, like processes.

And they found nothing was similar across the teams except when they did their surveys that people said, I feel safe. I feel that I can say whatever I want and I won’t be judged. And if I, if I get angry or if I am afraid of something, it’s okay. I feel safe. And that was the critical piece. To be productive.

So how can a leader help their employees to feel psychologically safe in a conversation no [00:07:00] matter what they’re experiencing? That’s the key to truly having a good conversation about change. So will you say that again? It is the key helping them to feel psychologically safe that they won’t be judged, that no matter what they express, and if they have an emotional reaction, it’ll be okay.

That the leader will just hold the space and allow them to go through that and then continue the conversation. So is that also the key for the leader when they’re going into one of these conversations that they feel psychologically safe? That’s a good point, yeah. What it is that they create, I always say they have to stress themselves emotionally, so Right, you are right.

They have to talk. To themselves that this is not going to be horrible. I am going to handle it just fine. If they make a mistake, that’s okay too. I always say, people want you to be present more than they need you to be perfect. They’re [00:08:00] not looking for a perfect leader. They’re looking for a leader who cares.

Maureen: That’s really the message, isn’t it? That when I have to give difficult feedback, when I can say that I care about you and I care about your success, and there’s this thing. If you continue doing that thing, it interferes with you accomplishing your goals. It’s that delivery with care that matters more than technically accurate delivery following some formula.

Marcia: And that’s even the first step of mental preparation for a difficult conversation is number one, what do your intention for the conversation? Are you there to truly help the person? This isn’t about meeting KPI and what you want, the person has to feel as if you are there to help them achieve something they want.

So you need to know what is it that they want? Do they wanna be a leader? Do they wanna be seen as credible by their peers? Do [00:09:00] they just want to be accepted or some peace and quiet? What’s important to the employees that they’re not getting? Because of their behavior and you’re there to help them get their needs and their goals met by helping them change.

They have to feel that and how you frame the conversation impacts very much then their felt experience of the interaction. But that’s the first thing is like that. What’s in it for me? That is still valid. They have to feel that you’re there for them and not just for yourself. Leaders forget that they get disappointed and angry with people and, and they forget that in order to give feedback to help them improve, that the person has to feel that they are there for them and to help them achieve something that they want, that they’re not getting.

Maureen: The same is true of giving feedback to children. True. It’s easier to remember. We love you and we want the best for you, but I’m not sure that’s always true.

Marcia: [00:10:00] Right.

Maureen: Can you walk our listeners through more detail about how they can prepare themselves so that the conversation goes in the positive direction rather than results in all the negative catastrophizing that we have imagined could be possible.

Marcia: I call it creating a safety bubble. So, you know, we talked in the last segment about the importance of people feeling safe, and I love that you added that the leader needs to feel safe as well. Mentally preparing for these conversations is critical. Oftentimes what people do no matter is it’s a leadership conversation or a conversation with your friend, is that we script it and then we memorize the word, you know, this is what I’m going to say, and we don’t think about how we’re gonna feel.

So there’s three things that are really important in mentally preparing for a difficult conversation or a transformational conversation as [00:11:00] we start to look at this as a possibility instead of something negative. But the first one is what we talked about before, the intention. That you wanna be really clear about what is the intention of the conversation?

Are you just wanting to, uh, change them or punish them? Or is it that you truly wanna help them achieve something that they want, that they’re not getting? So you may need to even do a little research and, and if you don’t know, that’s where the conversation needs to start to discover, you know, what is it that’s important to you when you are with your coworkers and it’s not going well, or with the work that you’re doing.

Your conversation always has to be focused on helping them achieve what they need and their goals if you really want them to change. So the intention of the conversation is the first thing, and you can always come back to that. If the person starts to get defensive, then you say, you know, I understand your perspective and remember that I’m here to help [00:12:00] you achieve this.

I wanna give you a little example on this. I was coaching a leader who, her boss had told her that until your peers see you as a leader, I am not gonna promote you. And she really wanted a promotion. And here was the problem. She was a leader for an international company, but she was in Panama and this was the Latin American region.

But she was Dutch. Her values and what she thought was important were slightly different than the rest of her team. And she was all about efficiency and getting things done right. And I asked, what do you think is important to them? And she said, well, they’re all about relationships and family. I said, well, you know, you go into these meetings and then you judge them.

You jump all over them for their ideas. Yet your values are different. What do you think it’s gonna take for you to shift so they know that you understand what they think is important? Your peers need to see you as a [00:13:00] leader for you to get what you want. There was quite a few times that I had to keep coming back to that.

Are you interested in them seeing you as the leader and what it is you need to do in order for that to happen? So by knowing the intention and what it, what’s important for them to achieve ease, gotta keep coming back to that. You know, you’re there to help them achieve that and you may need to remind them of their goal.

Just a critical piece. What is this that they want or need in order to achieve their bigger goal? This also then gets to the culture of the organization that as a leader, I know my people well enough and I’ve created an environment where they can share their goals. It’s not all about just, I keep my job ’cause I show up and I do what I’m told, but I’m treated as whole human being with aspirations that are shared.

And I as the leader, am committed to helping people accomplish their goals. But not every work [00:14:00] environment promotes that sense. You’re absolutely right. There’s a shift that’s gone on in the last decade or so where employees want their leaders to be more of their partners in their career development, not their leader.

And that shift in a partnership mentality is really important. You know, that’s why coaching approach in leadership conversations has become so important. And when I said before that, if you don’t know what someone wants. Then that needs to be the first part of the conversation. You know, what is important to you?

Maureen: This can be tricky because as the boss, I am both in the role of making sure people deliver results, that things they’re getting paid for. Then helping them grow and develop and while we say we wanna create an environment where they can share their their aspirations, they also need to be meeting the job requirements.

Marcia: Well, you know, that’s an interesting observation. Think about it. If you have someone that [00:15:00] has career aspirations that are not in alignment at all with the job they’re doing, are they gonna stay? Are they going to do their best? How can this job help you achieve your ultimate goals? And it may be that their ultimate goals are not with the organization, but what they can do in the next five years, which, you know, most employees don’t stay beyond five years these days anyway.

They don’t stay beyond two years. In my last company, I, I ran the training for this large corporation, and they gave me the factory trainers, which I knew nothing about the factory. And the first thing I asked each of them in our one-on-ones is, well, what would you like for your career and how can I help you?

They were shocked that I even asked them that question. They were all different. The first one wanted to learn the computer system so she could update the forms, which was like, okay, fine. The second one wanted to be developed to be a supervisor, and she knew that at that point we didn’t [00:16:00] have a need, but we went public and we grew really fast, and I prepared her to be a supervisor even when we didn’t have the need, and she was so happy and she was ready.

And then the third one, I asked her the question, you know, what do you want for yourself and how can I help you? She started crying. She says, I’ve worked for 13 years. Nobody’s ever asked me that. In all honesty, is it against the organization and organizational goals to try to understand what people want and how you can help them?

Or is that not a part of leadership that I am here to help you achieve what you want, and won’t that even create loyalty? To the leader who helps them to grow. I agree that it does. The point I was trying to hone in on is that the equation has to be, they also say, I wanna be a supervisor. I also have to meet the requirements of this job.

While I’m learning to be a supervisor. I don’t get to draw off [00:17:00] part of my responsibilities ’cause I don’t really wanna do this. Right. And so, you know, one of the skills that I teach in coaching is bottom lining. Okay. Bottom line, I’m gonna help you do this and you still have to meet your goals in order to prove that you deserve to be a leader in this company.

Maureen: Perfect. And that was the point for listeners, because I’ve had these conversations, they’re not doing their job. How can I help them go learn to do something else? The first responsibility is get the work done. So I love the idea of bottom lining and it’s a trade off, and here is the foundational requirement.

Marcia: Right. You know, we gotta pay our dues. Again, it doesn’t mean that you’re tough, it just means you’re direct and you’re clear about what is required and what you want for them. So I want this for you, and here’s what’s required. It’s an and conversation, not an OR conversation.

Maureen: You and I are on the same page. I just wanted to raise that point because I can imagine some of our listeners [00:18:00] are saying, yeah, but, so yeah, you see how complex that can be. So let’s go to two of the three steps.

Marcia: Okay. So, you know, once you at least have an inkling of what it is they want. And you could be wrong, allow them to tell you that ’cause you need to learn that.

But number two is to really check your emotional stake. ’cause oftentimes, when we go into what we think is gonna be a difficult conversation, we’re upset, we’re angry, we’re disappointed. Something happened that probably you didn’t expect or didn’t want. So you really have to look at the, what is the emotions I’m bringing into this conversation?

Because if you’re upset or disappointed, you’re already gonna impact the person. They’re not gonna feel safe with you, they’re not gonna open up to you, and they’ll either resist you and get defensive, or they will just comply and say, okay, fine. And neither one of those responses is going to get you the outcome you want.

So you have to go in with some [00:19:00] hope. Okay, I believe in this person. I think we can get through this and if I can just find the past, we’re gonna get through this together. You’ve gotta check your emotions and bring in care. Curiosity, maybe compassion, courage. I always say pick two. What do emotions do you want to bring in with you?

And then if you start to get upset, you can just quickly go back in your brain to those one or two emotions, because know that the moment they see you, I always say, do you know what happens when you walk in a room? The moment you walk in your, your emotions have an impact on people even if you don’t realize it.

Right? And don’t think, oh, I’ll just, you know, hide my emotions. No emotions have energy. And again, the moment you walk in the room where they see you, they’re sensing how you feel. So you have to do an actual emotional shift. I mean, this is where emotional intelligence comes in. [00:20:00] How do I actually shift in the moment?

And if you can’t then be honest. Just say, you know, I really wanna believe in you and I’m disappointed. You know, you’ve promised me three times and three times you’ve not met your promise. So be honest with it. You know, I wanna believe in you, but I’m, I’m disappointed, or I’m a little upset. Just tell them why.

Don’t fake it. ’cause they’re gonna know. Well, the third one relates to what I just said is that you’ve got to believe in the person. If you’ve gotta have a high regard, you’ve gotta believe that even though they may not be showing the best they can do right now, you have to believe they can. People have to think that you believe in their potential.

So what’s it gonna take to believe that they can do better?

Maureen: And that gets back then to the psychological safety piece that I’ve created A safe environment. Even if you’ve said, Maureen, I’m disappointed in you in how you prepared for our interview.

Marcia: Yeah,

Maureen: yeah. So that feels different than, or was [00:21:00] that a terrible interview? ‘Cause that leaves me afraid that I’m not gonna keep my job. Marcia, now the question is, so I’ve, I’ve prepared, I’m ready. I am, have a clear intention. I’m feeling positive, but halfway through the conversation. My mental state has gone to some bad place. I’ve shifted back to that catastrophizing, and they’re never gonna get it, and this is going poorly.

How do I catch myself and fix in the moment? Shift myself from, I wanna stay alive and make it through the conversation to this person really is someone I value and I’m here to support them.

Marcia: You know, Maureen, This again comes back to, you know, the skills around emotional intelligence. But in writing my new book, I’ve come up with the word catch and release.

The emotional states are in the body, so the one that truly gets leaders. Now, this is something that I really came on to just a few years [00:22:00] ago, that judgment is an emotion. We often think of judgment as an opinion. They’re right, they’re wrong. They shouldn’t do that, when actually we have an emotional reaction in our body somewhere before it actually comes out of our mouth.

This is why I love teaching in China because their value systems are so different that they trigger my judgment all the time, and I’ve come to find that my judgment shows up, like it hit right in the middle of my chest, in my solar plexus. I get this and if I can catch it and breathe and just release the energy and come back to appreciating this person in front of me who’s really struggling and trying to get through this, and I’m there to help them, that I can then release my judgment to come back to being present. But I have to know where it is in my body before it floods my brain. A good way of identifying that is to go places where your judgment [00:23:00] get triggered, like maybe go to an airport and walk around.

People trigger you all the time. So when you go to places where you know that you’re gonna have judgment, then you can start recognizing, but how does judgment feel in my body? That’s the first step. And then you have to breathe. You have to release the tension in that spot so you can relax and come back to be present to the person.

Maureen: I love the idea that as leaders or coaches or people helping others, that there’s a practice for being judgmental. We’re stopping to be judgmental.

Marcia: Well, yeah. We’re real good at being judgmental.

Well, and the thing is, is that we are judgmental by nature. Oh. We tell people, you know. We are judgey people outta survival.

So don’t tell me, oh, I’m not judgmental, because we all are. When we walk into a room, we’re judging, you know, what’s safe, what’s not safe. So if you just accept it, that’s the first step. It’s accept I’m judgmental. Let [00:24:00] me start identifying when a judgment appears, and that’s what’s gonna get in the way of these conversations.

So yeah, you might become a little afraid if somebody shows an emotion or you might get angry. But oftentimes it’s because we judge the situation. Right, wrong, good or bad. And again, being judgmental is human right. We are wired. Our brains are wired to keep us alive. So something that feels bad given my upbringing may feel unsafe, and my brain like is wired to give me that pain in my chest or my stomach to say, alert, this could be bad. Just acknowledge that my physiology is doing what it’s intended to do and it’s a good thing, and my buying can choose or not choose to override that feeling of judgment. Right. In fact, that was my first book is called Outsmart Your Brain, and that’s the first step is to say, okay, I’m having a reaction.

That’s normal. So it’s not about stopping your [00:25:00] reactions, you’re gonna be judgmental, you’re gonna have fears, it’s what you do next. As humans, we have the power then to choose to say, I’m having an emotion. Okay, that’s interesting. What is it that’s best for me to do next? Back to the idea that I can practice it.

’cause it is not natural that when I judge something I can then say, ah, but that’s okay. Benjamin Zander, um, who wrote the book, the Art of Possibility, he says, well, you know, you just stop and say, that’s fascinating. I’m having an emotion or a judgment. That’s fascinating. So what do I do with it? So we shift, we refrain how we feel about not just other people’s emotions but our own emotion, which helps us then choose to override what the brain might tell us to do and actually have pre will to choose what to do next.

Maureen: And the other thing then that, that this speaks to is, I worry before I go in the meeting, what’s gonna happen? What’s gonna happen. [00:26:00] This tells me, one, I can practice these skills of catch and release. And even if it feels like it’s going off the rails, I have the capacity to bring it back to something constructive.

Marcia: Yeah. Don’t beat yourself up and if you start to beat yourself up, then you start to spiral and then you’re not in control. But if you just stop and say, wow, okay, I’m having a reaction. And always take a breath. ’cause you have to release the tension in your body in order to be able to override it, ’cause the tension will take over. So it’s like, oh, I’m having a reaction. Let me exhale here and then decide what is it I wanna feel instead. This takes a lot of practice. Well, you know, it, it does and it doesn’t. It it takes practice. Practice with things that aren’t as volatile. There are some situations where I can easily do this.

You know, when I teach, I’ve learned how to do it, and then there’s some people in my life, like my sisters that I don’t know that I’ll ever do it. Well. [00:27:00] Well, and that’s what I meant by a takes practice. There were some situations that are so emotional, some people just trigger you, and that’s just gonna be the way it is.

Maureen: So let’s move on then to what coaching approaches can leaders adapt to shift the mindset of others in a conversation? So what do I do if I wanna shift your mindset?

Marcia: Well, one of the first things that I know is sometimes difficult for leaders is that we have to allow people a little space to tell their story.

We often, they come in, they have a complaint. You know, leader then wants to jump in and tell them what to do, and then the person doesn’t feel heard, and you’re probably not solving the right problem because you haven’t really heard what they need. So the first thing is to be able to allow them the space to tell their story and to appreciate their experience, whatever that is.

And then start summarizing. So what you’re telling me [00:28:00] is this, so I see that you think that that other team is out to get your team. Is that true? And sometimes just summarizing and paraphrasing what the person’s telling you, sometimes that’s enough that they start to hear themselves, think they starts to see the gaps in their logic and maybe some of their beliefs that are crazy. So we summarized, paraphrase, give back what we hear and notice, you know, and I can see that you’re really upset about this, and then maybe ask them questions. So what do you think about that? How do you know that’s true? How long has this been going on? We summarize and then just ask clarifying questions.

Start there. You would be amazed how much more quickly people will change their perspective and once they change their perspective, they change their behavior. It’s far more effective than saying, here’s what I think you [00:29:00] should do, and then expecting them to go do it. Do you have an example? I assume you have probably thousands of them where you’ve done this questioning process and seen a significant shift pretty quickly.

One of my favorite examples is I was, uh, coaching this woman who was the senior VP of HR for, uh, one of the large retail chain here in the us and she came on the call and she just started into this. I’m so overwhelmed. I have so much to do. I don’t know where to start. You have to tell me how to prioritize.

Now I could have done that. Yeah, I could have given her some steps and what’s most important to you and all of that. But instead I said, okay, let me just share with you. You’re telling me that you have all these things to do and you don’t know where to start. You need help prioritizing. I said, so let me just step back.

You are the senior VP of this large corporation. Prior to this, you were a very successful corporate attorney. Somewhere along the line, [00:30:00] I have to assume that you learned how to prioritize or you wouldn’t be in the position you are today. She got very quiet and she said, uh, yeah, probably. I said, so here’s the question.

I wanna know what keeping you from prioritizing right now. And again, a long pause and she said, you know, I think I’ve lost my way. I don’t know what’s most important. I had a vision when I started this job and now I don’t know if I have it anymore. And so I don’t know what it is that I want. And I said, well, that’s a different conversation if you’d like to have that.

And she said, um, well, actually no, I took the job because I wanted to learn the retail business because my husband and I had a dream of opening a restaurant and I don’t know if he wants to do that anymore. And I need to talk to him. And so I said, okay, great. And so we, we rescheduled and she came back and said, you know.

We do wanna do this and I need to stay with this company [00:31:00] a little longer ’cause there’s other things I need to learn. And you’re absolutely right. I don’t need you to tell me how to prioritize.

Maureen: That’s a beautiful example. I wanna make sure our listeners hear again the name of your latest book and the book that you talked about, the Discomfort Zone book so they can hear from you where to get more information about this and also how to contact you.

Marcia: The book is coach the Person, not the Problem. And the example I gave you was exactly that, that you’re helping people to understand what’s stopping them from moving forward, not telling them what to do. So how do you coach the person? In front of you, not the problem they’re facing. So coach the person, not the problem, which actually came out of my work, my last book was The Discomfort Zone, how Leaders Turn Difficult Conversations Into Breakthroughs.

So a lot of what we talked about today came from the Discomfort Zone, and then I just went deeper with how do I actually apply that in conversations with the new book and you can [00:32:00] find all the information. My website is co provisioning, one word co provisioning.com. If you go there, they’re right up front.

There’s a button about, take a look at my books, but there’s a lot of other resources. If you click on Discomfort Zone, there’s tools and tips and all kinds of things that people can find on my website.

Maureen: Thank you very much and I wanna thank our listeners for joining. I trust that you found many helpful tips from Marcia.

Thank you very much for joining us and we trust that you’ll be joining us again soon.