Innovating Leadership:
Co-Creating Our Future

Resources:

You can learn more about Cynthia Cherrey’s organization – as well as their next global conference – on the International Leadership Association website. https://ilaglobalnetwork.org/.

To learn more about the African Union.

Our host Maureen Metcalf posts a newsletter every week on LinkedIn. You can subscribe here.

Maureen’s latest book is Innovative Leadership & Followership in the Age of AI. Find details about the book here, or check out the Kindle version or the audiobook.

Her other 10 books are available on Amazon here.

Guest(s):

Guest(s) Bio:

Cynthia Cherrey is president and CEO of the International Leadership Association (ILA), a global network of leadership scholars, educators, and practitioners. Previously, Cynthia served as Vice President and Lecturer at the Woodrow Wilson School of Public and International Affairs at Princeton University. She publishes in the areas of leadership, organizational development, and higher education including coauthoring Systemic Leadership: Enriching the Meaning of our Work, coediting ILA’s Building Leadership Bridges book series, and co-editing Women and Leadership around the World. She is a Fellow at the World Business Academy and a recipient of a J.W. Fulbright Scholarship. Cynthia’s interests and research explore new ways to live, work, and lead in a knowledge-driven, interdependent, global society. She consults and speaks to for-profit and nonprofit organizations around the world on leadership and organizational change.

Ajay Bramdeo is the African Union Ambassador to the European Union. In this position, Bramdeo is working to overcome the historical legacy of relations between Africa and Europe to establish more mutually beneficial exchanges between the two continents, particularly, in recent years, in terms of migration. He is also engaged in ensuring that Africa’s voice carries weight within larger global systems for governance, such as the United Nations and global conversations around peace and security.

Transcript
(auto-generated)

Unknown Speaker 0:09
Hi, I’m your host, Maureen Metcalf, and I’m delighted to be recording from the International Leadership Association Conference in Atlanta. And we are joined right now by Cynthia chair the CEO of the ILA Maureen, thank you again for us, and yes, as you and I are having this conversation right next door, they’re packing up the boxes for the conference past three days. In one of the competencies we talk about in the leader 2050, book of leaders of the future, or the most effective leaders, is intellectual versatility and being exposed to thoughts about leadership that made me different than I grew up with. One of the people I interviewed said the conversations outside of the room are often the most contentious and not contentious in a combative way, but they’re causing me to question my own views. Can you share a little bit about those conversations and why it’s worth engaging in them. Why do people who are thought leaders in their fields take off to come here to refresh and really evolve the practice and science of leadership? When you bring up the words intellectual versatility, it makes me think of elasticity. And when you think of elasticity, there is this stretching that needs to happen. I think when people come to the ILA conference, it helps to stretch their views, to really push the boundaries of their thinking. We all learn from difference. I mean, it’s easy for us to keep hearing from the people that we agreed with. I used to tell my students, if all your friends agree with you all the time, go find new friends. There’s a sense of we all need to keep learning. For best way to keep learning is to be engaged with others that can help to stretch how we think about things and challenge how we think about things. One of the concepts that I share with individuals at the ILA conferences that they need to suspend their beliefs in order to deepen their holes, and there’s a time when they have to really step back in question, right? Also question if there is a concept or a practice that offends them or they’re struggling with. The first question to ask is, why is this difficult for me? Before we shut down on it and the ILA conference allows individuals to do is it gives a space for individuals to come together. I would call it more of a laboratory, if you will, this laboratory that’s also collaborative, that allows people to share ideas with each other, to learn from each other, to challenge each other, and then also to go back and generate new knowledge, do new research projects and look at new and effective and different practices. But the thing they learn here is they do that with each other, and so we’ll often get two or three individuals who did not know each other, all of a sudden find that they may be very different in terms of the work they do, but they have a very common interest around one area of leadership, Gil and yorit, they’re talking about and experimenting with E leadership. So if I am within a global organization. How do I manage people across the world with whom I work but never see so they’re creating practices at this point and studying the efficacy of what they’re doing. There’s two levels to that work. The first is, you have a scholar been thinking about this and doing some writing about and you have a practitioner who really has to develop leadership programs, and the two of them would not have met, and probably would have thought, Okay, this is an academic side of those things. Discover is they really have so much income and a common purpose of looking at E leadership, and they like each other because they got to know each other, and now they’re working together, and one is from the states and the other one is from the Netherlands and Brussels. So this space helps to generate new relationships, and from those new relationships and networks and new ideas. So we’re recording this right before the US election. By the time people listen to it, we will know who the president is, but one, the hopefulness here compared to the disenfranchisement with much of our population. What are we seeing as we come together, that we are creating solutions to the problems that our politicians are addressing? If we’re looking at political leadership, right? We’re looking at some of these complex, wicked problems, not only United States, but have been cited all over the world. I think you would hear from a number of scholars who are here that there is a real struggle about effective leadership in the world today, in this global world of ours and the world.

Unknown Speaker 5:00
Interdependent. We become more complex. We are, and this is the work that you do as well. We don’t know what type of leadership we don’t have the right toolkit right now to really look at what it is in the world that is needed in terms of affecting global leadership. George papadreo and former prime minister of Greece, talked about this in his remarks, in that it is a challenging time to be in a political leadership role in broad Heifetz talked about this in his remarks, in terms of the importance of trust,

Unknown Speaker 5:36
as did George the trust is the foundation as we were working with people with whom we consider enemies or foes or not allies, the first step is to find a kernel of trust, the kernel of trust and build on that. That was one of those themes that

Unknown Speaker 5:56
we’re reading. Another one that I heard was and it was around the theme of the dynamics of inclusive leadership. First, it’s very challenging, right? There are challenges to inclusive leadership. And inclusive leadership does not mean we all agree with each other. I think that’s a really important point to bring. This is not the conference in fairy dust and Kumbaya. We are all. This is not that at all. This Is Hardcore researchers looking at the wicked problems, and people like Ron Heifetz who are saying, I’ve got to step on the balcony, and this problem is going to work me as much as I’m going to work it. And the other thing is, we have to quit deifying leadership you just mentioned. Is hard work. It sure is. The fact that leadership was hard work, the practicing it, even the study of it, was challenging, and so is the teaching of it, then the education of it, and all of that is really important for us to be doing today. That’s what coming together. Can you sense this and saw this and observed it is that there are people who are so different from each other. Who are at this conference come here from all over the world, who come from every type of work situation and also think about leadership differently, but they’re all interest in the study practice of effective leadership that is really based in sound research. And they have a passion for non liquid fix, right? Being able to really dive deep into what it is about leadership, what is it we need to know about, and basing it in very good sound, solid research. It’s not the quick fix. You know, as you say that, one of the things I hear is the courage it takes to say, I don’t know. I’m not sure how I’m going to figure it out. I’m going to step back and do the research, which means I can’t answer this right now. We’re going to create a solution that doesn’t exist, to think differently, to behave differently, to interact with people across the globe that I may have seen as those people. What happens if my identity gets shaken up, and I do see myself as a global citizen, not that I leave behind my country of origin or my family or my religion, but that as the priority I can be living in a global community and place that as one of my key values, well, the interdependencies, you mentioned that complexity, one of the skills, in addition to intellectual versatility, is that whole sense of global acumen, global community, or this global mindset. It’s not always about that sense of where you live, but it’s about how you experience the world, and you take a holistic worldview. I think that’s one of the things that we do quite well. The I like is we challenge that singular, siloed mindset, because what we are all about is the bringing together, the intersectionality of work, the integration of work. That’s why, even at the conference, we frame the conference at the beginning, saying that you are going to experience dissonance, you’re going to experience harmony, and at the end, we have a conference Weaver to create these threads, as you mentioned, and this year, we had one on prose and poetry. So one of our members created a poem around the entire experience, and another member created it around the prose, and really wove it all together in that way you have bookends, but in the middle, it’s all about each and every member and how they experience each other, and this conference in a way that challenges them, confirms them, but leaves them with, hopefully an additional sense of resources and even more importantly, networks around the globe to help us more collectively.

Unknown Speaker 10:00
They make this impact, and perhaps through the collective research and the collective conversations around the effective practice, we can make a difference, right if it’s in a local community or if it’s in the global community, but anything you do in a local community has implications globally. One of the wonderful things is we get to see a former Prime Minister having a conversation with a scholar, and I’m really reflecting together in front of an entire audience, and you become a part of that conversation. We had someone who was talking about leadership in Africa, leadership in Greece, leadership in the States, but there were themes, right? We’re all struggling together in most globally interdependent world about you know, people say when they start planning a remodel, they say, I don’t even know where to begin, but that’s where we come in at simple bath and kitchen. Design is the fun part. We walk you through styles, colors and layouts right in our showroom so you can see your new space come to life, and once you love the design, our team handles the rest on time, on budget and with zero pressure, beautiful designs, smooth process. Visit simple bath and kitchen.com. To start your design today, we make it simple for you,

Unknown Speaker 11:19
and let’s close on that we are all struggling together, and I would say, to improve this globally interdependent world

Unknown Speaker 11:32
Today’s guest is AJ bramdow In his current role. He works as the African Union ambassador to the EU he’s working to overcome the historic legacy of relations between Africa and Europe. So in a very short interview, we’re going to talk a little bit more about what is most interesting to you right now. AJ, for me, the critical issues are, how do we try and shape and define a world, a system of governance where all of us can have a say in the type of world we would live in. We are all products of history, and the legacy of history obviously would impact upon where we find ourselves as people, society, countries and regions and so Africa and Europe have this history, which is a little sweet history, to say the least. And of course, in our diplomatic relations, trade relations, and so forth, which are assuming increasingly more important role. We are trying to balance the interests of both continents and the people of both continents so that it’s a relationship which will be mutually beneficial. Now, of course, we are also mindful of the fact that we are operating within a global system of governance which isn’t necessarily perfect and which would constantly, if it is to be dynamic and relevant, need to be modified, need to be reformed. And this will then give all the people of all the continents an almost equal say in the manner in which we run our affairs. So modifying and reforming global governance is obviously a big undertaking. Where do you start? Or do you personally focus? Well, I think when we look at the thematic issues which we are dealing with on a day to day basis, such as the issue of migration, which you mentioned, that is very topical at the moment. It’s topical here in the United States when it comes to the current campaigns over the presidential election to be held next week, and both candidates and both parties, the Republicans and the Democrats, are pronouncing themselves as to how they view the issue of migration with us in Africa, migration has always been taking place within our continent as well as between our continent and other continents. Now, at the moment, I must say that we are rather disheartened by the manner in which the issue of migration is being discussed globally or specifically in the US? Well, I think more specifically when it comes to the European Union, because, you know, the proximity of Africa to the European continent, it’s just 12 kilometers that separates us at the Straits of Gibraltar. And so most of our people, when they are fleeing conflict, persecution, poverty and they are seeking a better life for themselves and the families they are looking to get a better life in the nearest possible place, and Europe is very attractive to them. So most of them, and I speak relatively here, most of them would go across the Mediterranean Sea, particularly because they cannot find the legal means and channels of moving between Africa and Europe. Those channels are extremely inaccessible, unaffordable, and the criteria used to allow.

Unknown Speaker 15:00
Out for mobility of people into Europe is so strict that it’s almost impossible to get in legally. So in desperation, people now of course, become victims once again, because they have to submit to the human and tragedy and smugglers. So it becomes a situation of people who are desperate to flee their own countries, and this is an issue of safety, right? This isn’t preference. This is No, definitely not. This is, I want my children to live through a normal course of life, precisely. You know, I don’t think anyone just wakes up one day and says, my

Unknown Speaker 15:39
country, yeah. So circumstances which are beyond their control, which forces them to take such decisions. And quite honestly, throughout history, Maureen people had been engaged in mass movements within continents, across continents and so forth. And the most recent migration on a massive level took place after World War Two, when the people of Europe moved in all directions, particularly into this South American continent. Millions of people went, resettled, started lives again, and so forth. Now this may have been during the colonial era, so it made it easier for people to move. But here are people who are coming because they don’t have any other choice. No other option is available. One can certainly understand the concern, the security concern that European governments would have, but these need to be balanced with humanitarian concerns. This is basically where the debate is at the moment, should Europe seek to protect its own interests, its own infrastructure, way of life, religion, value system, and shut out people who want to come and integrate and work hard to make our society work. Africa has a youthful population. Europe has an aging population, so the demographics themselves could be of resistance to the European continent. If the European economy is to recover from the current financial crisis and economic crisis and grow as it did in the past, then here is your skilled, educated labor force, you know. So the youth are our future. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the youth of Europe coming into Africa and seeking a better life. But it’s not going both ways. Well. It does go both ways, but not in the percentages that we see at the moment. Now, if you take the number of people who are moving from Africa into Europe, these people come from certain countries and certain regions of Africa where there is a lot of instability and poverty is perhaps more dire and so forth, but the number of people moving within Africa towards the percentage of people moving from Africa to Europe. And that makes sense, right? You’re going to go to a neighboring continent before you go to a different continent. Well, most of the African people prefer to migrate within Africa because of different levels of development within our economies and different opportunities, and as would happen in any society, those who are poor and have very little are often most prepared to share it with others. So we don’t have this type of a crisis within the African continent, you may have incidents of resistance from the local population who see the refugees or the migrants having a better life than them, and that doesn’t go down well at times, and so you may find opposition to that. But what is more interesting is that the migration from Africa to Europe pales into insignificance compared to the migration from the Middle East into Europe right now, because of the conflict situations in Iraq, in Syria, Afghanistan, you’ve got far more migrants, hundreds of 1000s more coming from those countries into Europe. It seems like that’s what we talk about all the time right now, you know, when people are fleeing for their safety and safety of their children, you cannot sit there and begin to debate and discuss and have an intellectual discussion. Now, is this person falling into this category or that category? So that our legal obligations have to be met in this manner, or that all of us are signatories to international protocols and conventions dealing with refugees and people who are being persecuted, even with migrants. But when it’s convenient, we want to have a different interpretation of international law, and then the morality flies out of the window. Is that because of the stress it puts on the economies that the migrants are going to for the perception and reality of safety? Or are there what other factors? Because I know this is a very complex situation. It is indeed very complex, and all of these factors play a role. For one.

Unknown Speaker 20:00
Can’t say that it’s the one and not the other. It’s a combination. But what is more disturbing is that politically, we are seeing a shift from the left and center left to the extreme right politically around the world, around the world, and it’s more pronounced in the Eastern and Central European countries where the fear has been instilled in people without any good reason. As far as I’m concerned, to say anyone who is different is a threat to our way of life, to our value system, to our societal way of life, and so people who are of certain religious backgrounds, we now find there’s a phobia, you know, I don’t want to pick any specific religion, and if these people have a different culture, a different language that they speak, then they are going to undermine whatever we have been living through. And this is simply not the case, because the more diverse we are, the stronger we are, and the more enriched we become. Yeah, we notice that when I have an economic portfolio, of course I wanted to be diverse, it seems like a no brainer for most people. And yet, when we look at humans, we don’t apply the same principles in any case, indeed, and this is perhaps what is most disturbing that we seem to be more focused on our material life than, you know, morals and ethics and what’s right and wrong. How do we help people? How do we make this world a better place? And so it was quite interesting for me to have been invited to be at the ILA conference, and to give a keynote address on what I would classify as an international leadership crisis that we had because of the issues and because of the institutions that we have which are no longer capable of taking us into the future. So do you have recommendations for the people listening. What do you want them to walk away with? Well, I mentioned one little statement in my address yesterday to say that people want to belong. They want to feel included in decision making processes, in all aspects of life and even in leadership positions. So we can only have inclusive leadership where we have inclusive democracies, which means we should not marginalize any segment of society based on any criteria whatsoever. We should not be elitist, exclusive. We should not be prejudiced or discriminate against people on any grounds. Let’s make it an all inclusive society where everyone belongs. Everyone will buy into whatever the solutions are. So that seems reasonable, but not easy to do. Agreed. So any suggestions on how one what would be a first step? We have listeners around the world. What would you recommend we do tomorrow, today, to be different? Well, I think people are already starting to make their voices heard, particularly those who have remained voiceless up to now, technology and innovation has given us the platform to be heard, to be seen and to be taken note of So social media, internet, our communication revolution, has allowed our people to organize themselves in real time and to make their views known. And they all have an impact, whether it is the economic governance issues and we’ve seen so many scandals in the corporate sector, political scandals, we have way too many of these scandals which are taking us down the wrong Path. We need to stop accepting mediocrity from our governments, from our corporations, precisely from our church institutions, yes, from local level to the global level, to the United Nations, there is ineptitude, which we need to address. And if we address that, and we are honest and sincere about it, we can bring about changes that will impact positively on every human being’s life, and so what I hear you saying is as a listener, if I’m not an ambassador, and that’s just what you people do, but it’s also my job. It’s my job as a citizen, as a leader in an organization, as an employee, as a neighbor to be inclusive on others in my community who may be marginalized. Indeed, we are all activists and we are all agents of social change. So none of us should sit back and say I’m comfortable with the status quo, and I’m going to try and keep it as.

Unknown Speaker 25:00
Is I was gonna say, What do you say to the person who is excluding others out of fear to protect what they have? I’ve got mine. It’s unfortunate that you don’t have yours, but if you get yours, that may mean I have less. What do you say to that person or those people? Well, you know, that’s where the difficulty comes in because our current system thrives on inequality, and hence we have so much of poverty. If we could have a fairer distribution of wealth associated with our level of education and our ability to get the task and the job done to put our shoulders to the wheel and put in some hard work. There is nothing that prevents us all from having decent accommodation, access to health care and all the other social benefits, having a decent job where we don’t have to debate whether it’s $10 an hour or $15 an hour, minimum wage. We need to be able to spread the route. So it’s an allocation issue, not a scarcity issue. Indeed, there’s way too much. In fact, I think it’s actually bordering on the criminal for people to have so much money that they don’t know what to do with it, and others are dying from starvation and famine, you know, so we need more philanthropists, but we also need leadership with a vision that can take us into the future. It’s what we practice in daily life. It’s what we go to pray about, sink, divine intervention, guidance. Let’s put it into practice. Each one of us can make a difference, no matter how small. So imagine if all of us get together and act on something, we are certainly able to bring about change for the better. You know, on that note, I can’t think of a better way to end and say just such a deep gratitude for making time out of a life of huge impact to have this conversation with us. Thank you. Thank you very much. Marie,

Unknown Speaker 27:14
hey, Columbus, it’s Jenny and Bill from simple bath and kitchen. Are you thinking about updating your bathroom or kitchen? Don’t call some big out of town franchise. We’re local, top to bottom right here in Columbus, we know our city, we know the homes, and we always treat every project like it’s our own, on time, on budget, zero pressure. So you can actually enjoy your home visit. Simple bathing kitchen.com today we make it simple for you that simple bath and kitchen.com simple bath and kitchen.com