Innovating Leadership:
Co-Creating Our Future

Resources:

Ryan’s new book is Becoming Better: The Groundbreaking Science of Personal Transformation. It’s in paperback at https://amzn.to/42iMLAp, and audiobook at https://amzn.to/4pazdkh.

Our host Maureen Metcalf posts a newsletter every week on LinkedIn. You can subscribe here.

Maureen’s latest book is Innovative Leadership & Followership in the Age of AI. You’ll find details about it at https://bit.ly/LeaderInAI, or check out the Kindle version at https://amzn.to/44buVz8. The audiobook version is now available at  https://amzn.to/4dTCleZ.

Her other 10 books are available on Amazon here.

Other episodes you’ll enjoy:

– Bringing Clarity to Confusion with Terri O’Fallon & Kim Barta

– Do It on Purpose with Nell Derick Debevoise

– Leading with Care & Purpose with Raj Sisodia & Sudhanshu Palsule

Guest(s):

Guest(s) Bio:

Ryan Gottfredson, Ph.D. is a cutting-edge leadership development author, researcher, and consultant. He helps organizations vertically develop their leaders primarily through a focus on mindsets. Ryan is the Wall Street Journal and USA Today best-selling author of Success Mindsets: The Key to Unlocking Greater Success in Your Life, Work, & Leadership, The Elevated Leader: Leveling Up Your Leadership Through Vertical Development, and Becoming Better: The Groundbreaking Science of Personal Transformation.

He is the founder and owner of his consulting company, Ryan Gottfredson LLC, where he specializes in elevating leaders and executive teams in a manner that elevates the organization and its culture. He has worked with top leadership teams at CVS Health (top 130 leaders), Deutsche Telekom (500+ of their top 2,000 leaders), Experian, and others. He has also partnered with dozens of organizations (e.g., Federal Reserve Bank, Nationwide Insurance, Cook Medical) to develop thousands of mid-level managers and high-level leaders.

He is also a leadership professor at the College of Business and Economics at California State University-Fullerton. He holds a Ph.D. in Organizational Behavior and Human Resources from Indiana University, and a B.A. from Brigham Young University. His research has been cited over 4,600 times since 2019.

Transcript
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Maureen: Welcome to Innovating Leadership co-creating our future, where we explore the evolving landscape of leadership and the inner work required to thrive in complexity. I’m your host, Maureen Metcalf, and today I’m joined by Ryan Gott Fredson, a returning guest and someone whose work on developmental maturity deeply resonates with mine. In this episode, we’re diving into the transformative journey of becoming. In this journey, we’re driving. Try again. In this journey, we’re diving into the transformative journey of becoming better, not just by acquiring new skills, but by updating our internal operating system. Ah, okay. Thank you. [00:01:00] In this episode, we’re diving into the transformative journey of becoming better, not just by acquiring new skills, but by upgrading our internal operating system. Ryan’s insights on vertical development, the being side of leadership, and the path of meaningful growth, offer a powerful lens for leaders committed to evolving themselves. And their organizations, you’re new to developmental maturity or already walking that path, this conversation will challenge expire. Oh my God, I can’t read today. It’s not gonna expire anything. Whether you’re new to developmental maturity or are already walking the path, this conversation will challenge, inspire, and expand your thinking.

So let’s get started. Welcome, Ryan.

Ryan: Thanks for having me on, and what a great [00:02:00] introduction. I love this.

Maureen: I am delighted to be talking to someone whose knowledge is so deep in this field.

Ryan: Well, let’s geek out.

Maureen: Cool. So many leaders aspire to grow, yet few truly understand how transformation happens, which is in part blamed on us as the people who help them. From your perspective, what are the most common misperceptions about personal and leadership development and how do those hold us back?

Ryan: Well, yeah, it is such a great question because I think, here’s what I’ve learned. Is that, I’m gonna say 98% if not more, of all of our development efforts are really focused on the same thing, and that’s developing knowledge and skills. I mean, you think about our education systems, our athletic programs, our organizational development efforts are all about here’s what you need to know and here’s what you need to do.[00:03:00]

And I’m not gonna say that that’s bad. I’m also not gonna say that. That’s great. I mean, if we’re, and you use this key term, if we are looking for transformation, this is not the path to transformation. Now, don’t get me wrong, it is incredibly helpful and we need it. But it’s not the path to transformation.

And when we’re on this path of focusing on gaining new knowledge and new skills, what I find is that most people are trying to push, trying to go harder. And that’s the myth, right? Because personal transformation really isn’t about going faster or going harder, it’s really about just going differently.

And I imagine that’s the direction of our conversation.

Maureen: It absolutely is. Uh, and so you make the distinction, as do I, the inner beingness versus the relating and the doing and all are required. And yet often I think at, at least I’ve experienced this, people come to a [00:04:00] leadership program and they’re looking for the checklist and, and the recipe and not thinking about that. inner process and, and I think we both use the term operating system, not unlike the complex operating system of a high-end computer. Requires a level of up upgrading that we often don’t consider, and all the way down to the neurons in the brain.

Ryan: Yeah, you’re spot on. And I love that terminology. I just think that’s helpful terminology. We’re not adding apps. Or, or we, I mean, we can add apps to our iPad. If we’re the iPad we, we can add apps. That’s knowledge and skills, but adding apps to the iPad doesn’t improve how effectively the iPad operates. If we want that, we’ve gotta upgrade the internal operating [00:05:00] system.

And, and so that’s this, uh, I’ve got my new book out. It just came out. It’s called Becoming Better, uh, the Groundbreaking Science of Personal Transformation. And this is the primary idea of the book, as I I try to explain that. Look, we could try to go about improving ourselves by downloading these apps that’s improving on what I call our doing side.

Or we could focus on upgrading our operating system, and that’s focusing on what I call our being side. And if we could connect to that being side, evaluate our altitude along that being side and elevate along our being side, then what we’re gonna find is transformational growth and development. And I loved in your introduction how you talked about we do the inner work for greater complexity, and that’s ultimately what this being side work is all about.

Maureen: So in your book you talk about awareness. Altitude check and then upgrade [00:06:00] and so help me understand, help our listeners understand what do each of those things mean, because my guess is we all understand the words, but we don’t understand merely what you are trying to unpack in a whole book.

Ryan: Yeah. So yeah, let’s go over that. So the awareness piece is just to, first, to connect with this idea that we have a being side. We learn what that is. So let me give you some people, for example, you tell me what these people have in common. Let’s go with Bill Clinton, tiger Woods, Michael Jackson, Elizabeth Holmes, Ellen DeGeneres.

Anything come to mind about say that?

Maureen: They’re people. They wear pants. Um, initially I was gonna say music, but they, they’re all public figures

Ryan: Yeah.

Maureen: they’ve, they’ve all done [00:07:00] things the public eye that have been brilliant and some that have been damaging, hopefully, that they’ve learned from.

Ryan: Yes, well said. Right? These are incredibly skillful individuals within the realm in which they’ve operated. I mean, we’ve got the king of pop in there for goodness sakes, right? So what this helps us to see is these are people that are really developed along their doing side. Their doing side is, is what’s been helpful for them to achieve the fame or notoriety that they’ve achieved.

But as you kind of alluded to, each of these individuals has some controversy around them and the controversy, the thing that’s stalled them, hasn’t been related to their knowledge and their skills. Uh, it hasn’t been related to their doing side. It’s been related to their being side. And so I, I think that this is just a, a, a helpful way for us to start to feel into what is our being side?

Well, [00:08:00] our being side is the quality and sophistication of our body’s internal operating system. Now, here’s one of the ways that we can help to kind of gauge our altitude along our being side. So if we think about. The being side is being on the Y axis and the doing side is being on the X axis. How do we gauge?

Well, I think it, what this being side represents is a continuum between, at the bottom levels of being wired for self-protection and at the higher levels being wired for value ation. So go ahead.

Maureen: a variation of Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs. I.

Ryan: Well, it’s the, the theoretical foundation of that continuum, uh, was developed by people who were the students of Maslow. So, so Maslow applies his framework, but it is, there is surely a connection here, but yeah. So people at the lower levels are more wired to ensure, right, [00:09:00] for example, their safety, comfort, and belonging.

As one goes up on their being side, they become less preoccupied with their safety, comfort and belonging, and more focused on creating value for others, um, and contributing to the, to a bigger purpose, something bigger than themselves. And so each of us, our own body’s internal operating system, our wiring falls somewhere along that continuum.

So people who are more reactive generally are at a lower being side altitude, whereas people who are more mindful present, um, more metacognitive, these are the types of skills and abilities that we see with people that are higher along their being side.

Maureen: So the phrase I like is transcendent include, so I, I haven’t stopped caring about my safety

Ryan: Yes.

Maureen: my basement flooded the other day. I stopped what I was [00:10:00] doing to attend to water. Then I went back to being metacognitive, but at that moment I was mopping. Um, so, so just to point out that we don’t give that up, it just becomes a smaller focus in our day.

I’m still able to react when water’s coming through my sump pump and then return to my. More complex functioning without being waylaid by the thing that I had to react to. Is that an accurate description?

Ryan: Yes. I think that there’s a couple of concepts that could, that could kind of help us feel into that a little bit more. One is a concept that I use called Center of Gravity.

Maureen: Mm-hmm.

Ryan: know, so it’s not necessarily, to your point, we don’t, along our being side, we don’t stay at the same level every second of every day.

There’s gonna be some ebbs and flows to this. So what is the percentage of our time that we’re [00:11:00] spending at those higher levels versus the lower levels? And so that, that’s one way to think about it. Another way to think about it in terms of this notion of complexity is, here’s one of the things that I’ve learned.

As people elevate along their being side, they develop more hats in their closet and they develop a greater capacity take off and put on different hats. And so what I heard in your example is I kind of put on my. Mopping hat, I’ve gotta deal with this problem, this challenge right now, so that I could go back to creating value for others.

Uh, right. And then, and then you have this ability to take off and put on a hat, these different hats. Well, people who are less elevated along their being side, oftentimes these are leaders that always are wearing their, for example, their go go go hat. And they just never seem to be able to take it off, or they have a difficult time taking that [00:12:00] off.

Maureen: A, as you say that I’m thinking I was go, go, going to clean to get rugs off the floor. So I didn’t stop going, I was going at a different thing. And I understand your point there is an amount of introspection and reflection required. the going so that when I go, I can go wisely, not

Ryan: Yeah.

Maureen: actively.

Ryan: Yes. Intentionally as opposed to reactively. Yep, for sure.

Maureen: So take us to the next part of, so we’ve got, that’s awareness.

Ryan: So yeah, awareness is okay. We’ve got a being side. It’s, uh, the degree to which our body is wired for self-protection or sorry for value creation as opposed to self-protection. Then the next step is let’s start to gauge our altitude. We’ve kind of already started to feel into that, so it’s helpful to know where we’re at, because then we’re gonna have a clear sense of where we [00:13:00] need to go.

And so this is where there’s a variety of frameworks that I think are helpful. We walk through. Kind of from reactivity to intentionality. That’s a really basic framework. Another really basic framework is from a, um, narrow window of tolerance to a wide window of tolerance. Um, but even we could go even more ingrained where we tap into different thought leaders in the adult development space to identify.

Different levels of adult development. So in my, in my, uh, book I class, I’ve identified and kind of building off of other experts in the space, identified three levels that adults tend to operate from, um, and the, I call ’em mine 1.0, mine 2.0, and mine 3.0. So at mine, 1.0 is when we’re wired, as I mentioned before, for safety, comfort, and belonging.

Mine 2.0 is when our bodies are wired to stand out, advance and get ahead. This is more of that go, [00:14:00] go, go mode. And then that. The third level is when our bodies are wired to contribute, add value, and lift others. And so what we find is that generally we have a center of gravity where we tend to operate.

At one of those levels. Now that doesn’t mean we can’t jump around to the other levels, but we do tend to have a center of gravity. So that’s one helpful framework that helps us to kind of gauge where we’re at. And I’ll throw out these statistics just to bring this to life. Uh, what, what Keegan, uh, Robert Keegan has found in his research is that across all adults, 64% operate at that base level.

35% of the second level and only 1% at that top level. But across leaders in organizations, he’s found that 7% operated the base level. 85% operated that second level, and then only 8% at that top level.

Maureen: [00:15:00] And all sites, some research from PWC and I think it was Torbert, um, that over the last decade we’ve only added 1% to that. Upper level. So, and, and for your terminology that strategist whi, which may fit into your second level. So we are not building that top level. It is the key message that I think you’ve seen, I’ve seen, and for our listeners, it is so crucial in an era where the, the volume of change is. Increasing at a rate that, um, requires later stage thinking and being.

Ryan: Yes. Yeah, you’re spot on, right? Because as we mo shift up, I think one, here’s another, some language for this. When we’re at that base level, we operate as [00:16:00] dependent thinkers. Now we don’t feel that way, but we, we kind of conform, right? Uh. At the second level, we operate as independent thinkers. Um, and, and this is where we see most leaders.

I’ve got my own good ideas and I’m gonna run with them. Well, at the top level, what we’ve got is interdependent thinkers, and it’s this interdependent thinking that is necessary for navigating the change, uncertainty, complexity, uh, and stress and pressure that we’re feeling in a rapidly developing marketplace.

Maureen: So for our listeners, can you give us in the top two levels little more granularity? ’cause my assumption is people are listening to this saying, I hope I’m in the top percent. Not sure I am. What does this mean and how do I know?

Ryan: Yeah, yeah, great question. So one of the things, one of the biggest hallmarks is that people at that second level, and this is most leaders, they’re [00:17:00] primarily focused on results and outcomes. Right. If I, when I go to an executive team, one of the first questions that I’ll ask them is, how do you measure success in your business?

And if they answer with some sort of number or percentage, that tells me a little bit about where they’re at. And, and oftentimes they’re focused on these outcomes in the short term, right? What’s our quarter or annual results or outcomes? And, and to be quite frank, and the one of the reasons why we see so many leaders here.

And it’s not terribly bad, it’s just shortsighted. But one of the reasons why we see people there is because this is what we’re in. This is the place we’re incentivized to operate as leaders. Uh, but that doesn’t necessarily equal high level leadership. So, uh, at that second level is primary focus on results and outcomes.

Now, when I work with a group that’s at that highest level, and I ask them that question, how do you measure success in your [00:18:00] business? They generally don’t start with numbers or percentages. They talk about their purpose and the impact that they’re gonna have on their primary stakeholders. Uh, and so that’s a key difference.

So I, um, one of the ways that I’ve heard this say is these second level leaders are fruit. The third level leaders are root focused. They’re focused on creating the right environment where the naturally will get their, their people will grow and thrive. So those are a couple of hallmarks. Is that helpful?

Maureen: It is. And the the thing that strikes me, and I’ve been in a couple of these conversations actually today. How do we help leaders become root focused? When in the context within which I operate, I am expected to deliver, especially publicly held companies, I

Ryan: Yep.

Maureen: to deliver short term results [00:19:00] consistently, and so I have to build a structure that delivers that.

Or I don’t get to be here next quarter. I

Ryan: Mm.

Maureen: necessarily. I have to both. As a conscious leader, I have to both deliver short term consistently and also prepare to deliver long term and equip my organization. And so for many leaders, if I’m treading as fast as I can just to deliver short term, I don’t get to the long term. And if my board isn’t focused on that, then I’m not. Allowed to focus on the long term ’cause the, the entire expectation is fruit.

Ryan: Yes. And that’s the inherent challenge, right? And this is why we need board of directors to understand this maybe more than any group, because we need board of directors and leaders to. Or create psychological [00:20:00] safety where. The short-term matters less and the long-term matters more. So let me give you a, a a few examples that I think most people will be able to connect to.

For example, I would say Jack Welsh at GE was the epitome of this second level leader. And he was great at hitting shareholder expectations quarter after quarter after quarter, and he saw three, or I think it was a 6000% increase in GE stock price under his tenure. I mean, that’s unreal, but let’s look at where GEs at today.

Right? Because of his short term focus, he made decisions that improved the stock price in the short term, but crippled the business in the long term. And, and, and that’s of course the last thing that we want. Um, and let me give you kind of a, a couple of other examples of third level leaders. One would be Alan Mulally at Ford.

Alan Mulally stepped in as CEO of Ford in [00:21:00] 2006. Ford lost $12.7 billion that year, the largest loss of any company in an annual year. And what did he do thereafter? Right after, is he. Then proceeded to take out the largest loan in history. Well, that sounds really dumb. Why would you take out the largest loan in history if you’re bleeding money at a rate that nobody’s ever seen before?

Well, his focus was, well, this may hurt us in the short term, but the only way we’re gonna get out of this hole is if we invest in developing cars that people want to buy. So they took out this loan to invest in innovation so that they could produce cars. And ultimately they were the loan American auto manufacturer that didn’t

Maureen: Yeah.

Ryan: a government bailout.

And so he was willing to sacrifice the short term for the long-term benefit. And I think that those, those two leaders, I think provide a really stark [00:22:00] contrast, uh, hopefully kind of brings these ideas to life.

Maureen: We actually, a good friend of ours, uh, was his chief strategy officer, and so we get to interview him regularly and hear a little bit about those. The, the granular decisions he made and the amount of time he spent in that strategy how he related to his people, uh, and the expectation inside of the company about you bring, you bring problems and solutions.

Like if you are trying to cover stuff up, you do not get to stay.

Ryan: Yep.

Maureen: expected to be transparent and we will work through the problems. So those level two leader behaviors were heavily.

Ryan: Yes. So one of the things that we feel into this, and this is what’s so common, uh, about kind of our business environment, [00:23:00] is when leaders lead through control. It is a sign and a signal that they are operating at a lower being side altitude than what they need to be. It’s when leaders lead with purpose.

And that’s one of the things that Alan Malali led with. Uh, let me give you another contrast. If you looked at the contrast between Steve Balmer. The former CEO of Microsoft from 2000 to 2014 to the current CEO Sachi Nadella. It also provides this stark contrast. So Steve Balmer, during his 14 year tenure stock price stayed the same and he was one of these mid-level leaders and, and he was going after the short term wins, the short term results.

Um, and Satch Nadella comes in as CEO in 2014, and what he says in his book. The C and CEO stands for Curator of Culture, and here’s what I’m gonna do. I’m gonna spend my first year listening. He didn’t say I’m gonna spend my first year [00:24:00] doing, he said, I’m gonna spend my first year listening. Why? Because that listening is gonna provide the foundation for the rest of his tenure.

Well, let’s look at the stock price of Microsoft over the last. Now 11 years, it’s up eight or nine times what it was when he took over. I mean, it’s this really extreme hockey stick curve. And that’s the, you know, so when, when we hear leaders, ’cause I hear ’em too, when we hear leaders say, I don’t have time or the bandwidth to focus on the bigger picture.

Well what’s, what they’re saying is, look, if we’re on in a manual transmission, I’m operating in fourth gear. People like Alan Muli and Satch Nadella. I’ll even add Marya, Indra Newi, our, our other leaders, they’re operating in fifth gear. And if they, if we can help leaders get to that fifth gear, if you will, then the RPMs come down and the speed goes up.

But, but [00:25:00] shifting those gears is really challenging for sure. And just from mentally, emotionally, because we’re so. Indoctrinated with that fourth gear mentality.

Maureen: So, Ryan, let’s, now you and I shift gears to what does it take? Because organizations are spending billions of dollars a year on leadership development and to use of the terms we use, um, sorry, beep. So one of the terms we use is, is. S it, it’s, is useful but not sufficient. Right? We’re, we’re developing leaders horizontally.

We’re not necessarily developing them vertically. Both are required, and I think we often stop at the horizontal building [00:26:00] skills.

Ryan: Yes.

Maureen: the being, and I think many of our clients don’t even know that they’re missing the being part

Ryan: Yep.

Maureen: all they’ve been exposed to is fourth gear,

Ryan: Yeah,

Maureen: we’ve got cars with a sixth gear.

How do I get to six I?

Ryan: yeah. Well, yeah, you, you’re kind of pointing in the direction, right? So I love, um, Jim Collins’ book, good to Great. Not, you know, it, it’s kind of, it’s, it’s an older book, but he lays down some foundational principles that I think are critical to understand here. So one of those foundational principles is leaders differ.

In their sophistication and maturity. Right. There’s these different levels. He has he, and he calls it the level five leadership. And, and quite frankly, his model maps onto these, the top three of his model map onto the three levels that we talked about. So the first lesson is leaders can differ in their sophistication and [00:27:00] maturity.

The second lesson is the leader’s sophistication and maturity. The level that they are at sets the ceiling for the groups that they lead.

Maureen: Yes.

Ryan: for an organization or a group to operate at a higher and more sophisticated level than the, than the leader? And so then what we need to understand is if we want to elevate the sophistication and maturity and success of a group or an organization, we have to elevate the leader. And, and that’s all about, not, again, to your point, not about giving them new knowledge and more skills.

But helping them to elevate their being.

Maureen: So Ryan, how about the pairings? So let’s think about someone like George Bush and Colin Powell. If I have someone and, and I am. Making the assumption that Colin Powell was a level five leader, I would assume that George Bush is a good man, but [00:28:00] not level five. So is there a way to pair people so that if there is someone in the senior executive ranks and that person may be even, uh, an outsourced, um. God, I’m losing words today. Uh, fractional it. Say there were a fractional COO or a fractional executive, who is it at the later stage, and part of the point I’m trying to make is you can rent a later stage person to help a team so that we don’t have to exit one of our contributing executives, but we can augment them with someone help elevate the altitude of the team.

Ryan: Yeah, I think that could be helpful. Of course, the concern is, is that a lot of times when a, I’m gonna call it, say just a, not that they’re a bad leader, I’m just gonna say a lower level leader. Um, if, if a lower level leader is [00:29:00] then. Kind of matched up with a higher level leader. It is really common for that lower level leader to kind of get defensive and protective, but they don’t have to.

So if we can create a circumstance where that lower level leader doesn’t feel. As protective or, or resistant, then that environment can really work because now that higher level individual can serve as a guide or a mentor, they may not be making all the decisions, but they serve as a partner in the processing of the decisions that the leader needs to make.

Um, and I think that, uh, going back to Alan Mulally. One of the things that he did so well, and I think a, a consultant or a partner could help with this is Alan Mulally laid what I call a strong leadership foundation. It was a foundation that included, here’s some of the elements, a clear inspirational [00:30:00] and stakeholder centric purpose statement.

Crystal clear values that are about value creating. I mean, one of those was love ’em up. Um, uh, uh, a clear mission statement and then a clear and psychologically safe culture. So a, a a a consultant. An advisor, a fractional executive. Can support a CEO, let’s say, in developing these foundational elements.

And what Alan, when Alan laid that foundation, he was able to get other leaders, right? So the leaders that got forward into their whole was the same leaders, effectively, that got them out. It’s just that Alan Mulally had laid an appropriate foundation. And, and there’s a really great book called American Icon, uh, that’s written about Ford that highlights this.

And, and, uh, there was an individual who was head of North America. His name was [00:31:00] Mark Fields, and he was known to be kind of this almost narcissistic, literal jet setting leader who had his own private plane paid for by Ford. And he would fly from, uh, I think it was Tampa Bay, Florida to Dearborn, Michigan, like every day almost.

Um.

Maureen: Hmm.

Ryan: And, and so here’s this, this leader and, and really was somebody who’s had an ego. And after laying this foundation out and, and having Mark Fields buy into the foundation, Mark Fields was able to operate as a higher level leader. Now, what’s interesting is that after Malawi stepped down, Mark Fields was promoted as the next CEO.

He reverted back to some of his egoic or narcissistic tendencies, which ultimately didn’t work out. So the moral of the story is, is if we can have an individual that can help [00:32:00] maintain that strong leadership foundation, it could change how the team operates as a whole, for sure.

Maureen: So I wanna build on that and, and I think of the So I’m gonna shift a little bit. Our metaphors, uh, Frank Lloyd Wright can design these beautiful houses. Lots of people can. We will argue how well, but lots of people can buy the plants and construct a Frank Lloyd Wright house, but other people, many people cannot just design a house like that. I would assert this is true. In leadership that the latest stage leaders are the architects who can build the entire construct. They build the ecosystem, they build it in alignment with the industry ecosystem in alignment with the global ecosystem. it is, in. what they’ve [00:33:00] built with the right blueprints.

A lot of people can perform to that level, but there are not a lot of people. Mark Fields couldn’t build it when Alan was there. Mark Fields could perform at that level. I, I don’t know any of them. So I’m building on your,

Ryan: Yep.

Maureen: Content here, but it took an Alan Mulala or someone at this later stage to actually create the, the infrastructure, and there aren’t many of those.

So how do we build them? How do we build them, Ryan?

Ryan: Yeah. And so this is, this is the process and what I, at least what I talked through in my book, right? And that’s where these three steps come from. So we gotta help them awaken to their being side. We gotta help them evaluate their being side altitude. Because when we, again, when we know where we’re at. We can have a clearer sense of, oh, that’s where I need to go next.

So now the question becomes how do we get there now, um, [00:34:00] here’s how I like to think about it. It’s been really helpful for me to think about it in this way as I identify three different levels of being side development. So I’m gonna call them surface level strategies. Deeper level strategies and deepest level strategies.

And I think generally the path is to start at the surface and then work our way

Maureen: Mm-hmm.

Ryan: deeper. So, but one of the, there’s a theme across all of these strategies, and because these strategies are not what we’re used to, we’re used to gaining new knowledge and new skills. These strategies are innately connected to refining and upgrading our body’s nervous system.

So at the starter level or surface level strategies, these are things like meditation, yoga, journaling, even cold plunging, for example.

Maureen: Oops.

Ryan: There you go. Give yoga. Yep. Right, because these, all, these, these [00:35:00] efforts help us to better regulate and become in control of our body’s nervous system. And so these are, these are largely habits that we engage in to maintain that regulation.

So that’s the surface level strategies. Do you wanna add anything there before I go to deeper?

Maureen: No, I, well, of course I do. So I love that you are acknowledging that part of being a better leader is. Being a better human being. And that starts with, back to that foundational safety piece. I have to have a way to manage within my body the amount of that comes in and, and keep calm. ’cause I can’t lead if I’m continually in a fight and flight mode.

Ryan: Yes. Well said. Well said. So that’s, that’s what I call our surface level strategies. The next level [00:36:00] strategies down the deeper level strategies are when we start to investigate the specific programming embedded in our internal operating system. So one of the ways that I look at this is through mindsets.

Uh, I’ve, I’ve got a free mindset assessment on my website, Ryan go.com if anybody wants to take it. And it helps them awaken to the quality of their mindsets across four different sets of mindsets. So, for example, one of those sets is the difference between a fixed mindset or a growth mindset. And that helps us awaken to our internal programming.

So if I’m presented with a learning zone challenge. Then what does my body want to do? Does it wanna move away from that challenge because it’s right for failure? Or does it wanna help me move towards that challenge because it’s an opportunity to learn and grow. So that’s an example of where we can get really specific on our body’s kind of current programming.

And it, it’s helpful to look through [00:37:00] these if then statements. Another one would be, if I receive constructive criticism, then. What do I get defensive or do I create space? Right? And that the, these are ways to help us evaluate the specific programming of our internal operating system. So that’s the deeper level strategies.

Anything you wanna add there? Mm-hmm.

Maureen: Now again, I like the idea that we we’re now getting to the programming deeper than I’m teaching the rules. When this happens, then you do this thing. I’m giving you the internal. system that unexpected things happen, you have the capacity to navigate them even though they are new to you and maybe new to all.

Ryan: Yes. Yes. Well said. So that’s the deeper level strategies. The deepest level strategies is really when we start to get into [00:38:00] therapeutic efforts. Um, so here’s what I’ve learned is, um, and, and surely there’s a variety of factors that impact our bodies internal operating system. But in the research that I’ve conducted, I’ve learned that trauma.

Is something that causes somebody to become more wired for self-protection. The same thing with different neuro divergencies like a DHD. So when we understand that trauma and NeuroD, divergencies are playing a role in how our body operates, then we may need, and if we have trauma or a neurodivergency.

Then we may need to do some work to heal from that, um, or, or to rewire our brain. So this is where trauma therapy comes up. Neurofeedback therapy is a therapy that helps with neurodivergency as well as other things. And then also kind of the cutting edge or, or kind of. Uh, out there, edge of, [00:39:00]of this space is looking into psychedelic assisted therapy.

So, um, these are, these are, you know, things where you need a trained professional to help you, but at the end of the day, I’ve found that most people, uh, really need at some point in time to get to this level to truly elevate along their being side.

Maureen: So these would be things I’m assuming. Help me put these in the buckets. Things like shadow work. Is that trauma or is that the level up

Ryan: Um, I think it, uh, it could be either, I think it depends on the method and the modality for that. So, for example. Uh, one form of trauma therapy that dives into that is called Internal Family Systems Therapy. Um, and that, that’s a trauma healing kind of form of therapy. Another trauma form of therapy that’s, um, amongst the, um.

The most, or, or I’m gonna say [00:40:00] has shown the greatest promise in terms of a research perspective is called, it’s the trauma therapy modality is EMDR, eye movement, desensitation and reprocessing. Um, and so that, that would be another, and there’s an element of, there can be an element of shadow work associated with that, but those are, are therapeutic modalities, uh, that really require.

A trained professional, and so that’s why I put ’em deepest level. I think that we can do some shadow work without a trained professional or with somebody who maybe isn’t as formally trained in that type of work, and it still be beneficial. And that’s where I put it at that deeper level strategy.

Maureen: I, I like that you help build the foundation by first meditating mindfulness, yoga. It’s hard to go to those deeper levels without the scaffolding and easy for people. Just like going to the gym and lifting too many weights on your first trip, you [00:41:00] hurt stuff. It. And what we don’t wanna hurt as senior executives is our capacity to function. So building a strong meditation, yoga, mindfulness, whatever works for you, go swimming, running, something to build that capacity, and then the mindsets, and then take on. deeper and, and the, the stats on people experiencing trauma are astounding. I know very few people, there are people who made it through childhood without trauma and then they’ve lost a family member.

They just, the process of being on the planet creates trauma and so it’s not. An indictment of your parents’ skills or anything like that. And many, if not most of my senior executive clients have done some form of [00:42:00] this deeper therapy.

Ryan: Hmm.

Maureen: and the reason I bring that up is to speak to people who may have the mindset that that’s not what we do. That’s not what successful senior executives do. In fact. Probably most of my clients do or have navigated their trauma effectively, which is why they’re really effective and successful Senior executives, and I’ll add psychedelics to that as well, that I happen to have a community of friends who were psychedelic practitioners. So I have seen firsthand. Incredible impact for people who do it in a therapeutic way and get ongoing support after. So it, it’s not like going on a, going to a rave

Ryan: Yep.

Maureen: home and being hungover. It’s, it’s. [00:43:00] Going to a therapist who is aligned the session with your leadership goals, your trauma goals, and then you go back to your therapist or your coach and continue to work through the things you’re working on.

Ryan: Yeah, spot on. And, and the, one of the benefits of the psychedelic assisted therapy is just, um, what they’re finding is that when you, when you use these substances, psychedelic substances, it lowers our, our guard. And, uh, our natural mental guards that come up when we start to do this deep therapeutic work and allows us with that guard down to do that healing work much more rapidly than what we could do otherwise.

Um, and so I think at the end of the day, I think one of the beautiful messages that comes out of understanding this perspective is if we want to become better, if we want to elevate [00:44:00] along our being side at a foundational level. It’s about healing our minds, our bodies, and our hearts. And, and to the degree to which we heal ourselves is the degree to which we will elevate to become the people that we wanna be and have the impact that we want to have.

Maureen: And so as you say that, I think of, you talked earlier about purpose. If I wanna truly be the best person I can be on the planet. Leave the biggest legacy, but also just be good for my family and my friends and my community this kind of work. So even if I’m not an executive, even if I am running a kid’s soccer camp, it is still useful to go through these steps.

I may not ever run forward. Chances are I will not, but my. [00:45:00] capacity will impact everyone I touch.

Ryan: Spot on. I mean, I feel that way personally. I’m not, I’m not a CEO. I’m a, I’m an author, I’m a professor, I’m a consultant. I think it’s changed how I teach my students at college. It’s changed how I interact with executives. It’s changed how I write. And even in my, my new book Becoming Better, I, I actually bring my wife in as one of the core examples is somebody she has historically struggled with a DHD, but didn’t know it until about three years ago.

And now she’s done some work on herself and, and she’s a stay at home mom. Um, but she would say it’s changed how I parent. It’s changed how I interact with my spouse, me, and it’s changed how she interacts and, and navigates kind of her friendships. And it’s elevated her, she feels elevated in each of those dimensions.

So yeah, regardless of where we’re at, that, and that’s a cool thing about elevating our being. We take our being [00:46:00] everywhere we go. So if we have an elevated being that’s gonna show up in any circumstance that we’re in.

Maureen: So, Ryan, we only have a couple more minutes, but I would be curious what you would be willing to share with our listeners about your own journey. How did you, how have you used what you are writing about? ’cause I assume it’s not just an out there thing. It is absolutely an in, in here for you.

Ryan: Yeah. One of the things that we’ve learned about this being side development is that it generally starts with what’s called a heat experience.

Maureen: Mm-hmm.

Ryan: a heat experience can be something that occurs to us. It could al also be that’s an external heat experience. It could also be an internal heat experience where we choose to consciously do this work.

Now for me, um, I, I was thrown into this by an external heat experience. I was [00:47:00] fired from my job and I just never thought I would get fired. And, and it’s not enough to go through a heat experience because everybody, almost everybody’s gone through a heat experience, but to capitalize on it, we need to engage in colliding perspectives.

We need to start to question. Our own ways of thinking. Compare ’em with other ways and develop higher ordered ways of thinking. So how this occurred for me is I, okay. I got fired from my job. I, I went, um, I, it was a job that I took under a leave of absence as a professor. I went back to my university and I started to do research on mindsets.

As I started to do this research on mindsets, it created that colliding perspective and what I learned. My mindsets are not as optimal as I thought they were. Right. The mindsets that I needed to survive my childhood were not the same mindsets that I needed to operate effectively as a person, as an adult, as a leader, [00:48:00] as a spouse, as a employee, right?

So I, I first had awakened to. Um, my self-protective mindsets and that allowed me to start to work on developing more value, creating mindsets. And I would say at that point in my life, it was life changing. I felt in the four years that I worked on the four years that I worked on my mindsets, I grew more in those four years than I had in the past 15 years.

The prior 15 years put together.

Maureen: Wow.

Ryan: What was interesting is at about that time, four years into working on my mindsets, um, I started to engage with a trauma therapist and, and in the two years that I worked with my trauma therapist doing this deepest level work, doing some deep healing work, I felt like I grew more in those two years than I had in the prior almost 19 years.

Even including that [00:49:00] work that I did on my mindsets, and so I’m not, I don’t think that everybody’s journey’s gonna be different, but I hope I, I think my journey recommend, recognizes or identifies some clear. Pivot points along my journey. I had a heat experience. I engaged in colliding perspectives, which investigated my mindsets.

I did the deeper work of the trauma therapy and, and I would say as a whole, going through this process, I am an awakened individual. Like I thought I was awake before, but now I’m awake. I mean, it’s almost like before I was seeing in black and white and thought it was color. And now I truly feel like I’m seeing in color.

So hopefully that’s a helpful journey.

Maureen: Beautiful. And thank you. I find it very helpful to, for our listeners, but also for me to make sense of it through. The [00:50:00] story, how did, so the heat experience being getting fired, the colliding perspectives being research, looking at the mindsets and then the evolution being the, the change in meaning making you rewired your. Way of operating in the world through the mindset work and through the trauma therapy, which is exactly as you’ve talked about. And I think let’s tie this into why so many people don’t make it to the top 1%. That’s really darn hard work. It’s really hard work, so congratulations for making it through that becoming one of our very few awakened people who is now sharing that with all of our listeners.

Ryan: Well, uh, that’s very kind of, you. Let me, let me make just two points on that. So one, let me recognize that I’m not done. [00:51:00] I’ve still got some work to do, uh, right. And I, I think that this journey of becoming better is really, really never done. Um, and then there’s another point I was gonna make and now it alludes me.

So we’ll, we’ll make that point for now, and then if it comes back to me, I’ll make, make the other point.

Maureen: Um, so I’m gonna go to wrap up. I, I’m just telling Dan in the chat, I told our client that I’ll be a couple minutes late. So. Ryan, first of all, thank you for sharing this incredibly thought provoking conversation and sharing your own personal experience because I think we can all learn from that in conjunction with your very robust framework. So as we explore today, true leadership transformation become begins with a thorough awareness of where I am.

My altitude and [00:52:00] then intentionally upgrading through, as you talked about, shifting mindsets and then doing the deepest work, which is the trauma work or the inner deepest work. And, and as you remind us, vertical development just a concept. It is incredibly personal journey Unpacking, unlearning and becoming the individual that we have the capacity to become on the planet for ourselves, for our families, for our communities, and if we are in a leadership role for our organizations that allow us to be more adaptive, more conscious, and more human centered. Ryan, how would people find out more about your book or learn, uh, your ongoing work?

Ryan: Yeah, I would love to connect with anybody. My book is becoming better. It’s available wherever you wanna [00:53:00] buy books, at least. Uh. Um, virtually, uh, Amazon, uh, for example, I’d love to connect with people via LinkedIn, and as I mentioned earlier, I’ve got my website, ryan gson.com. Where I’ve got some free self-assessments where people can evaluate their being side altitude.

In fact, I’ll throw it out here for, for your listeners. If, if somebody either gets my book or takes my assessments and reaches out to me, I’ll gladly, uh, meet with them to discuss kind of their, the, their results of those assessments and walk them through that. So we would be happy to do that with any of your listeners.

Maureen: Beautiful. Thank you. And so to our listeners, if this episode sparked ideas or questions for you, we would love to hear them or share them with Ryan if you have questions for him. And if you wanna deepen your development journey, stay connected with us at the Innovative Leadership Institute like and follow the podcast so you can continue to hear Ryan and [00:54:00] other. Thought leaders in this space. Until next time, keep leading with intention, curiosity, and integrity.

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