Innovating Leadership:
Co-Creating Our Future

Resources:

Brian’s TEDx Talk about persuasion (and the great story about his marriage proposal) is on YouTube at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6ZqO8POtgo. You can learn more about Robert Cialdini and the Cialdini Institute at https://cialdini.com. The website for Brian’s company is https://influencepeople.biz; he posts his blog weekly there.

Brian also has several books, including Influence PEOPLE: Powerful Everyday Opportunities to Persuade that Are Lasting and Ethical (print: https://amzn.to/4bPv3Yy, audiobook: https://amzn.to/3OVoF84); Persuasive Selling for Relationship Driven Insurance Agents (print only: https://amzn.to/42QWUDD); and The Influencer (print: https://amzn.to/3uNl19y and Kindle: https://amzn.to/3UO3A3o).

Our host, Maureen Metcalf, posts a newsletter every week on LinkedIn. You can subscribe here.

Maureen’s latest book is Innovative Leadership & Followership in the Age of AI. You’ll find details about it at https://bit.ly/LeaderInAI. Her other 10 books are available on Amazon here.

Books we’re reading for fun or personal development right now include:

• Everyday Ubuntu: Living Better Together, the African Way by Mungi Ngomane. Hardback (https://amzn.to/48Doh6j) and audiobook (https://amzn.to/48YCRF4).
• Nerve: Lessons on Leadership from Two Women Who Went First by Martha Piper & Indira Samarasekera. Paperback (https://amzn.to/3tOtzg4) and audiobook (https://amzn.to/41OYdT5).
• Jilly Truit murder mysteries by Beverley McLachlin:
  • Full Disclosure – https://amzn.to/46TxW6Q (paperback) https://amzn.to/46VDL3Q (audiobook)
  • Denial – https://amzn.to/46YCbhs (paperback) https://amzn.to/3GJc0AA (audiobook)
• Women and Leadership: Journey Toward Equity by Sherylle J. Tan & Lisa DeFrank-Cole

NOTE: As an Amazon partner, we may make a small commission from books you buy through these links.

Guest(s):

Guest(s) Bio:

Brian Ahearn is the Chief Influence Officer at Influence PEOPLE and a faculty member at The Cialdini Institute. An international keynote speaker and TEDx presenter, Brian is an expert in the science of influence, certified in the Cialdini Method for Persuasion and Pre-suasion. Brian is the author of “Influence PEOPLE” and “Persuasive Selling for Relationship Driven Insurance Agents.” His insights have reached over 700,000 people through his LinkedIn courses and more than a million views on his TEDx Talk. Brian’s latest work, “The Influencer: Secrets to Success & Happiness,” weaves these teachings into an engaging business parable.

Transcript
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Maureen: [00:00:00] This is Innovating Leadership Co-Creating Our Future. I’m your host, Maureen Metcalf, founder and CEO of the Innovative Leadership Institute, where we help leaders be future ready. Helping guests in this mission today is Brian Ahern, chief Influence Officer at Influence People, and a faculty member at the Cialdini Institute.

We’ll be talking about the importance of influence and the Cialdini Institute. Brian, I’m delighted that you’re with us today.

Brian: Maureen, it’s great to be back with you. I’m looking forward to it.

Maureen: Your work for decades has been the science of influence. Can you talk to our listeners a little bit about what is the science of influence and where do you use it?

Brian: We use it every day, and I like to say womb to tomb. From the moment we come into the world until the day that we leave, we are going to be trying to influence people to get our needs met. Anybody who’s a parent knows [00:01:00] that when that child comes home, the baby cries because he or she cannot say, I’m hungry, feed me, bur me, or whatever.

But they have a need and they’re trying to get it met. Then as we grow more sophisticated in our ability to communicate, we are still interacting with people trying to get our needs met, trying to change their behavior, their thinking, et cetera. So every person, every day is trying to influence other people.

Then the question becomes, can you understand how to do it well? There’s now nine decades of research behind that process where social psychologists and behavioral economists have studied how people respond in different situations, and they can come back with certainty and tell us there are more effective ways for us to go about this skill that we call influence.

Maureen: You and I have talked about this. You said nine decades. And with technology, how we influence, I assume, has changed. Some things don’t change between a husband and wife or spouses. There’s communication between parents and children. There’s communication, but with [00:02:00] technology, there are additional opportunities to influence.

And your science is keeping up with that.

Brian: Well, absolutely. The thing is, the human brain hasn’t changed in some 30,000 years. How we utilize technology changes, how we go about the influence process. People might have said the same thing back when the telephone was first introduced. Like, well, you know, is it the same thing when you’re on the phone or the fax machine or the email?

So all of these things that we now take for granted as normal, those have been tools that we’ve been using to influence people for decades, and it’s just the same now. Even though the technology is different, it’s just, can we understand what the technology is? How do we use it? Ultimately, there’s going to be a persuasive message that we’re using on that medium.

That’s what we focus on.

Maureen: Can you talk about a couple of areas where leaders influence and give us tools that would help them be more effective?

Brian: For me, when I think the principles of persuasion that Robert Cialdini popularized [00:03:00] nearly 40 years ago, I believe the one that’s the bedrock is the principle of liking.

Now everybody understands this. It’s easier for us to say yes to those that we know and like. Maureen, it’s not about me getting you to like me. It’s about me getting to know and like you, because when you sense that, Hey, this guy Brian really seems to like me and cares for me, that’s what opens you up to whatever I might be asking of you.

Now, if we put that into the leadership context, people would much rather follow a leader because they believe that that person has their best interest at heart, not because they simply hold the title or the corner office. And so I think it’s incumbent upon leaders to really get to know those people that they are leading, showing them how much they do care about them, and they can make that happen by utilizing this principle of liking.

And then right on the heels of that would be reciprocity. Maureen, if you really know that I like and care for you. Then whatever I do to help you is not received as something to get you to [00:04:00] do what I want. It’s, Hey, this guy Brian, he really likes it. He cares for me, and so you can readily accept what it is that I’m offering.

I feel free then in the future to go back to you should. I need help because I’ve done something for you and you gladly want to help because again, you know I have your best interest at heart. You know that I’ve been doing things to genuinely benefit you. And so for me, these are two principles that leaders really need to focus on to build the foundation of their leadership with those that they are leading.

Maureen: That sounds rudimentary, but I’m thinking of a conversation I had with a client this week just to set the scene. The senior executive has gone out for significant medical procedure. Younger person has stepped into the role. He’s filling his role and his boss’s role, so he’s just overwhelmed with things to do, and so what he’s not taking the time to do is create the human connections.

He’s doing the tasks required to keep the organization running. So while he cares [00:05:00] about his employees, they don’t at all feel liked or appreciated. They feel like they’re cogs in a machine and the boss stops by when something’s wrong or when he wants something. So the reciprocity isn’t happening, even though as you describe it, it’s natural.

How do you help that leader build the cadence of doing this foundational liking and building of reciprocity?

Brian: The first is creating the awareness that it’s needed because I know when I grew up in business, and this goes back to the mid eighties when I started my career. That wasn’t something that I remember anybody talking about.

It was leadership because you’ve been with the company longest, or you’ve been in that department and you’ve naturally ascended to the next level, not because you really understood how to lead people. So creating the awareness is the first thing. The second thing, when I’m sharing with audiences and we really kind of get into what it means to really come to know, and like the [00:06:00] other person, there’s almost an aha moment where people will come up afterwards and say.

I never saw it the way that you talked about it. And it makes so much sense that I should do everything I can to get to know and like the people that I am leading, that I am selling to, whatever the positions are that the audience is in. So getting them to recognize that. And then I’d say the third thing is this is an investment.

So it may take an inordinate amount of time early on to do this, but ultimately, any good investment pays dividends down the road and for a long time, and I really believe that when you’re investing in your team this way, you will start reaping those benefits. It gets easier as time goes by. It also gets easier because as you work on that skill, it just becomes more natural.

And I’ll end with this by saying I was not a really outgoing individual. I was not somebody who enjoyed networking or any of those kinds of things. But as I learned about this principle and as I put it into practice. [00:07:00] It became so much easier over the course of time. Then it started to really actually become fun because I love meeting people and having an opportunity to get to know them.

So that would be my encouragement for leaders.

Maureen: The other place it strikes me that it really makes an impact is employee engagement. When I feel valued, when I feel like I have a confidant at work, when I feel psychologically safe. All of those contribute to my willingness to step out of my comfort zone and engage in the hard things that are required in our everyday work.

If I am feeling either distrusting or just distant from my supervisor. I may not have that sense of safety that I require to make behavioral changes in the workplace because the workplace has changed.

Brian: Yeah. I had an opportunity to work for somebody for a long time who was an amazing boss, and he’s an even better friend.

He retired. We still maintain a close friendship. John was one of those people who [00:08:00] walked the hall every day. Every single day, he carved out time despite how busy he was, and he was usually in the office at 5:00 AM but he would carve out that time to walk the floor, check in on you, maybe tell a joke, but that consistency every day you’re in the office over weeks and months at years began to build relationship.

You knew that John really cared for you, and that’s one of the reasons that our department always had among the highest scores when we would do employee engagement surveys because people knew that John liked them. Cared for them. He was doing things that were genuinely beneficial for them. You know, he viewed his job as I’m the bottom of the pyramid, but not the top because I support all of you.

And what I need to do is clear out the obstacles so you can do your job to the best of your ability. And he was incredible at that. And it goes right to the heart of what you’re talking about, Maureen. When somebody gives you that psychological safety and that care, you will do far more for that individual than the person that you have to.

Maureen: His walking around [00:09:00] didn’t feel to employees like he’s checking on them. It felt like he was caring for them,

Brian: just the way he approached us. It was always a joke or something that was lighthearted or asking you about your family or you know. You know, how are we doing with this or that? But it never felt, never felt like he was checking up on you.

He was checking in with you.

Maureen: I do check on people’s status, and it’s not to check up, but it is to understand what’s going on.

Brian: He was a great leader, but also manager. You know, he understood how to manage tasks from A to B and how to manage projects. So we always had one-on-one time with him, and that was where he was checking up.

That’s where we were going through the accountability of where do we stand on this? What are the obstacles? How can I help? So we had those opportunities, but it wasn’t in the morning as he was in the office walking the floor. That was relational time and he was very intentional about that.

Maureen: That sounds like an important distinction that I carve out relational time.

I go to lunch with our team and that’s [00:10:00] mostly relational, and then there are task meetings to deal with specific task, project things that are also just part of managing people.

Brian: Yeah. Whenever we had our one-on-ones, there was always lightheartedness to start. Then we would dive in and the focus of why we were gonna spend that hour together was to catch up on where things stood on the various projects that we were working on.

But there were also those personal opportunities. It could have been having lunch, it could have been having coffee, it could have been. You know, hey, just knocking on the door, I wanna have a little bit of your time. John, can we talk about something? So again, very intentional about having the time to do the follow up on the goals that you had in the department, and very intentional on having the relational time

Maureen: that sounds, as you speak it so rudimentary.

And yet I think a lot of people in, at least in my coaching experience, aren’t doing it.

Brian: It’s so easy to get focused on the next task, and it feels good to check off that next task. If you give it time and you form those relationships, I think you’ll find those are a lot [00:11:00] more satisfying than just checking off another task.

Maureen: What’s the difference between influence and manipulation? I’ve talked to clients who are trying to influence a boss or influence an employee that they want to do something important. I’ll hear the question often, isn’t it manipulating to try to get them to do my thing or my thing my way?

Brian: That question comes up all the time.

When we talk about ethical influence, there are three must-haves when you’re going to be an ethical influencer. The first thing is truthfulness. Now it’s not enough Maureen to just tell the truth. We never hide the truth either. If there’s something that I know could materially impact your decision and I withhold it, if you find that out down the road, you will not be looking at me as an ethical guy.

What I learned through influence though, is I can bring up something that might be perceived as a weakness or a shortcoming. Actually gain credibility because you may be thinking, I wasn’t expecting you to bring that up, or you didn’t have to bring that up, or other people have never brought those kinds of things up before.

So I begin to gain [00:12:00] credibility as someone who is truthful. So we always tell the truth that we never hide the truth. The next thing is we only use the principles of persuasion that are natural to the situation. So we don’t manufacture a false sense of scarcity just to try to get you to act quickly on a timeframe.

We don’t falsely say that there’s social proof that like lots of people are doing something or people just like you, Maureen. Now both of those you really could also say are not being truthful, but they’re very specific to how we use these principles of persuasion. So again, we only use those that are natural to the situation.

And the third thing, which really I think also gets to the heart of what people are thinking of with manipulation. Manipulators are really only out for themselves. If the other person benefits in some way, hey, that’s fine. But if they don’t, that’s just as fine too because the manipulator is only concerned with getting what he or she wants.

Ethical people are always looking to create mutually beneficial situations, [00:13:00] and so I like to put it this way. Good for you. Good for me. Then we’re good to go. I think if we could hit all of those criteria about truthfulness naturally using the principles and creating the cubby would’ve said win-win situations.

I think we can feel good about ourselves that we’re not manipulating people into doing things that are not good for them, that they don’t want to do, or anything else that might be perceived as negative.

Maureen: The one that mostly resonates with me is the win-win for you and me and also for the organization.

So one client that struggled a lot with a boss was working for someone who high ego need, and the client always tried to point out how doing this thing that he was recommending also helped the boss raise more money, raise his. Credibility helps you look better, helps the department look better. My touchstone is if it’s not helping the organization, it’s manipulation.

And I understand your point. If I lie to support the mission, [00:14:00] that’s a problem.

Brian: Yeah. If you have to lie, then you don’t understand the merits of what you’re asking or why it’s really so important if you do. You should be able to make a good case for why we need to do X, Y, and Z as opposed to stretching the truth or outright line to get people to do what you need them to do.

I agree that when you are employed by an organization, you’re stepping into something that for the most part, you know, you know what they do, you know what their mission is, you know what the goal of your department, your role, and so you need to be working towards those things and helping the company succeed is a huge part of that.

Where you get a problem is when you have that person who is more concerned with their own opportunities and they’re only using the organization as a platform to get to where they’re going, and people can smell that. We can tell when somebody, again, if they really care about you or if they care about the organization.

We can tell when that’s really the case, and if we get a sense that they don’t care for us, they don’t care for the organization, we [00:15:00] are not going to put forth the same kind of effort as we would for somebody that we do believe cares.

Maureen: I think of the old trusted advisor book that I read probably 20 years ago, and it talked about on building trust, competence, consistency, and the sense of personal.

Interest. So if I get us to all accomplish something so that I get a bigger bonus, that feels more manipulative than if I get us to all accomplish something so that we impact our clients, our patients, our end users of some sort.

Brian: A great example of this is Steve Jobs. Early on in, in his career, he was given an opportunity, I forget all the details, they were gonna get paid like $300.

This is back when him and woes in the were working out of the garage. And there was a deadline that needed to be met, and he pushed Wozniak to do that. They got the bonus, but Jobs never told Wozniak about the bonus, and he kept it for himself. $300 is no big deal. But I loved it when [00:16:00] I read Wozniak said If he had just told me he needed it, I would’ve given it to him.

He was a friend. That’s what friends do. So something like that. But that said a lot about Steve Jobs character. That he was really out for him in that situation, and he did create wonderful products. I looked my iPhone and, and all of my Apple products, but I never would’ve wanted to work for the guy, not based on what I learned as I read the Walter Isaacson biography because it was more about him than it was about anything else.

Maureen: You used an important word, and that’s the character of the person. People of solid, we call it virtuous character or ethical character. When they’re influencing, they use discernment and balance good of the organization. Certainly most of us don’t act against our personal interest, but the nuance of balancing the multiple stakeholders, including the organization is crucial.

Brian: Yeah, Aristotle said character may almost be called the most effective beings of persuasion. And I [00:17:00] think humans, we have all kinds of ways of discerning character of whether or not somebody really cares for us. We, at the subconscious level, are assessing tone of voice, of body language, look at the eye, the smile on the face.

All of these things are registering. And when we are a person of character, when we’re congruent with what we say and what we do. People will pick those things up, and so character becomes incredibly important for anybody in a position of leadership. If people doubt your character, they are not going to be willing to follow you.

That’s something that is all within our control because it’s about, again, what we believe and then acting congruently with that. And I think it says a lot about a leader if they hold something that could be potentially beneficial for them and they choose to go in an opposite direction for the good of another person or another team.

In other words, they’re sacrificing their own personal interest for the wellbeing of others. That says an awful lot about their character because they really are then living out the fact that it’s not about me, it’s about you, it’s about the company, it’s about the [00:18:00] team.

Maureen: You know, I’m working with a leadership team now, and this is a consistent principle we use with all leadership teams, but as I get to a certain level, certainly kind of the C level team or the executive team, this idea of one team that I put the team and the mission above my functional area.

And that’s the distinguisher between a truly highly functioning organization and a group of people who come in and play rugby in the executive suite. And your point is, it’s persuasion with character.

Brian: Yes. I go back to my old boss, he was just a perfect example of this. He was an individual of character.

When John said he was gonna do something by ly, he did it. And he expected us to be the same way. And so it was very easy to actually work for somebody like that. Because when you saw the consistency in his character, the consistency of how he was going to follow up, all of those things, if you were willing to align yourself with that, then it was really, really easy.

And if you weren’t well, then it could be really difficult, but you always knew what he [00:19:00] was going to do. There were no surprises. It wasn’t like, oh my gosh, where did this come from? I’ve never seen this side of you before. He was as consistent as the sunrise and the sunset, and that made it much easier because employees don’t want to exert energy, having to wonder about the boss or having to be nervous or anxious about things.

That all is a drain of energy from us that could be applied to doing our jobs to the best of our ability.

Maureen: That again, sounds like the trusted advisor formula One part of that is consistency. That I can predict what’s happening, and I wanna say, especially in times of change, there are times that we do things people don’t anticipate.

But creating the sense that I am trustworthy means if I didn’t show up for the podcast today, you would have called me to see what was wrong. You wouldn’t have assumed I had just gotten an invitation to go skiing and took off.

Brian: Absolutely. That goes to some of our history too, and having been on your show in the past and having coffee and getting to know you and your [00:20:00] character, I would’ve naturally assumed that something wasn’t right if all of a sudden I’m on and, and you were not on.

You used the word consistency and what we talk about in these principles of influence, there is a principle called consistency, and consistency is about the other person. What have they said? What have they done? What have they believe, and can I align what I’m asking or requesting? Because it becomes much easier for people to act in accordance with what they’ve already said, done, believe, et cetera.

Consistency for you as an individual is critical because your consistency builds trust. If I say that I’m going to do something and I do it, I’m getting a little bit in that bank account with you. I’m earning trust. If I don’t, I’m slowly chipping away at that trust. One of the things that I encourage people to do to just bring this to top of mind, if I tell somebody I’m gonna do something, if I’m gonna send them, uh, a book, for example.

Then I’m gonna put in there, Maureen, as promised, here’s a signed copy of [00:21:00] my book that as promised can go almost unnoticed. But it does trigger for you that, yeah, Brian followed through. And when I’m doing that with regularity, that helps me be perceived as trustworthy. I am trustworthy, but I wanna make sure that I build that as quick as possible with the people that I’m interacting with.

And there are many little things that we can do that the research shows us that can help us get there quicker.

Maureen: One of the things that strikes me is this adding to it chemistry. There were people with whom I’ve interacted and the chemistry was just not there. So you and I have had coffee. We came to trust each other.

I respect you. The consistency helps people understand that if I have a hiccup that my team knows when I say something like this is the most important thing, it should not mean we drop everything and go after that thing that when I say it to the team, it means this is the thing that I’m really focused on right now.

[00:22:00] Not there’s a fire in the building next door. Now if we were a firefighting organization or a critical care organization, when I said, this is the most important thing, people should drop what they’re doing and go. And so there’s something about the consistency that we know the quirks of the people we’re working with and have developed an ability to almost decipher.

Because my sense is for all of us, when we speak, what we say makes sense in our heads and between what I say in my head and any of our listeners, they’re going through their own translation algorithm and they may not be hearing what I intended. That consistent relationship allows us to know and decipher from our trusted colleagues.

Brian: I would use the word grace. I think that we are able to give people grace when they’re not consistent with how they’ve been in the past. If I get to know you really well and all of a sudden there is a response that’s so out of character for you, I typically should extend grace. And I might say, you know, Maureen, what’s up?[00:23:00]

I mean, when you said this or did this, I’ve never seen that side of you before. It just makes me think something must be up and I can have that conversation with you. You’ve built that trust account with me to where I know something must be off, and I’d rather address that than get angry or make all kinds of bad assumptions like, oh, she was faking it before.

But if you’ve been consistent, I know you’re not, that you haven’t shaped it, and so something must be preoccupying you or grabbing your attention or tugging at your emotions to cause this out of character response. And we all have those times where we respond poorly.

Maureen: And I’m trying to build also the idea that in character, my way of communicating is different than our producer is different than one of our editors is different than some of my senior team members.

And it’s interesting as the team grows in their relationship with each other, not unlike. Spousal relationship just over time. You can finish each other’s [00:24:00] sentences and we build a shorthand in how we relate. My assumption is in the influence space as well, with consistency, those behavioral approaches, and I’ll say in some cases, behavioral ticks just become part of the backdrop of how we relate.

And yet for someone new entering that situation, those can be very confusing to decipher.

Brian: There’s another principle that really goes to what you’re talking about too, and it’s called Unity. And Unity says it’s easier for us to say yes to those who are of us, those that we share some identity with. When you think about, like you said, spouse, if you’re with a spouse for a long time and I’m coming up on my 36th anniversary, Jane and I have become a lot more alike.

I am more friendly and outgoing and compassionate than I used to be because that’s how she is. I think she’s more driven and focused than she used to be because that’s how I am. So the two are really kind of becoming what, and we do quite often know what the other’s thinking or feeling. We can tell [00:25:00] by a look.

Now that comes with the amount of time that you’re together, but what you’re describing, Maureen, there can be organizations where people are working together closely 40 hours a week in a department for five, 10, maybe 15 years. They get to know each other too. They can sense when something’s off. They know.

What those others are thinking and how they’re feeling. And if there are good relationships on the foundation of that, that becomes a whole lot easier to have a really strong working team because it’s not just me helping you, Maureen, it’s in a sense that helping you is like helping me because we realize what we are a part of and so we become more willing to extend ourselves for people that we feel like we share some identity with.

It does start with consistency because the person who comes in new, they don’t know about that, and they’re going to be looking at behaviors and trying to assess the people there and figure them out. But the longer they’re there, the more they become part of that team, the more we become unitized.

Maureen: Let’s talk about then senior team, one or two of the [00:26:00] members exit.

Can I use the principles of persuasion to rebuild with a different dynamic? So I’m trying to build trust that maybe there wasn’t distrust, but there wasn’t a sense of unity. It was each of us has our faction and we are delivering on our goals. My goal is to deliver sales, or my goal is to deliver financial performance reporting that.

Stuff and we haven’t built that cohesion. What would I do to build the unity?

Brian: When you say, what would you do? Are you coming in as the new leader

Maureen: or the facilitator?

Brian: Everybody within an organization has an opportunity to impact it. When we used to talk about coaching. Coaching can be kind of a top down thing, but you can also build coaching to peers and things like that because individuals can take initiative and if you are a part of that organization, you’ve been there for a number of years, you can take that initiative even in the absence of a leader because leadership changes all the [00:27:00] time.

But your opportunity to do that would, I think, start with really connecting with the individuals in that department and getting them to have a sense of, we really like Maureen because we know that Reem likes and cares for us, and you can start to become that change agent. You can engage reciprocity, because we often talk about whatever you want from other people.

Be the first to give. So when you are starting to set that standard, Maureen, by being the person who’s in a little bit earlier, stays a little bit late, or who sets aside some of the things that might be priority for you because you see that a teammate needs help, that starts to have an effect on the other people.

They may not get to where you are as quickly as you’d like, but if you’re starting to move them in that direction, then you’re having, what we’ll say is influence without authority. You’re not the person who’s above them, but you are a peer. But as a peer, your decisions are starting to change how they think.

Behave.

Maureen: How does persuasion or influence impact conflict? How do we navigate [00:28:00] the conflict of just daily life?

Brian: I feel like I’m gonna sound like a broken record when I say this, but if I go back to that principle of liking, right? If you and I are in a team. We don’t really have any kind of relationship and I get the bulk of the budget for my priorities.

You’re not gonna be happy at all. You may even think Ill of me, because we don’t have any kind of foundational relationship if we do have that foundational relationship. You may not be happy about the fact that you didn’t get what you want, but you’re not thinking and feeling the same way toward me because you’re thinking Brian is somebody that I know and I respect.

I like Brian. I wish I would’ve got that budget money, but Brian got it. Maybe I’ll get it next time. But you are gonna feel very differently and you’re probably not going to look to sabotage me, where frankly, in some organizations, people will take that tack. I’m gonna sabotage you. I didn’t get what I wanted.

I’m not gonna let you achieve what you want to achieve. But I’ve seen time and time again where building those relationships with people can minimize [00:29:00] things like that rather significantly. I’ll share one quick example of this. There was a study that was done between MBA candidates at Northwestern and Stanford.

They were put into an online negotiating situation, and half the group was said, keep it strictly business. Don’t do anything beforehand to get to know the person. Just negotiate the best deal you can. The other half was told, get to know the negotiating partner. Exchange some emails if you feel comfortable.

Exchange photos. Do what you can to get to know that person. Let them get to know you. And then here’s what they found when they looked at the groups who were unable to negotiate some structured deal. Only 6% who took time to get to know their negotiating partners failed to negotiate a deal. But 30% of the people who did not take time to get to know their negotiating partner were unable to negotiate a structured deal.

So Maureen, that’s five times more.

Maureen: Wow.

Brian: And the only difference being taking time to get to know somebody, if you and I get to know each other, and if we are [00:30:00] put into a situation where it’s negotiating or something else. We will probably hang in there longer because we know and like each other, we will probably be more creative because we will have more time.

If we’re hanging in longer, that will probably generate more trust that what you’re putting on the table is not trying to take advantage of me. There’s a whole host of halo effect things that come in when we really get to know and like each other. So I think by going into a department, and even though you’re not the head, when you understand this, building those relationships with as many people in the department as you can, because when you come into conflict and you will, it just happens when you are with other human beings, you’ll have a lot more grace to be able to get beyond those difficult times than if you had not invested at all of those people.

Maureen: As I’m navigating conflict, it sounds like that investment will reduce the frequency of conflict.

Brian: It absolutely should. I mean, if we think about people that we know and like we probably don’t have that much [00:31:00] conflict with them compared to people that we don’t really know or won’t say that we like or dislike or kind of neutral on them.

It’s much easier to have conflict with those people because the more I get to know you, you are given some measure of grace. Again, if you have a bad day, I respond differently because I know you and like you, as opposed to I don’t really know you well, and I’m seeing this behavior and I’m probably gonna assume a lot of bad things, rather than, oh, this is abnormal behavior and so therefore I can extend some grace.

Maureen: Or, this is normal behavior when you’re under stress. So similarly all extend grace.

Brian: Yeah, and if that were the case, if we were to see somebody who’s just always really good. But under stress, they’re always not good.

Maureen: Mm-hmm.

Brian: We could probably have a conversation with that person that’s gonna be very different because we built some relationship with them and maybe in a time that’s not stress, we could approach that subject and I could say, Hey, morning, I wanna talk to you about something.

Do I have the freedom to ask you a question? I’ve got relationship. You’re like, yeah, go ahead, Brian. [00:32:00] It seems like when stress hits, here’s what I’m seeing with you, and we could at least talk about that. If I don’t have that relationship, you might be like, Hey, mind your own business.

Maureen: Just don’t do it when I’m under stress.

’cause

Brian: that wouldn’t be the right time to do it. That would be like telling my wife, calm down when she’s upset. Right. I’ve learned that doesn’t work.

Maureen: Yeah. Not helpful. You did a TED talk about persuasion. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

Brian: Well, actually it was the persuasion. Persuasion is about what do we do before we even try to persuade somebody?

What can we do to, I like to use the term, set the stage so that mentally, physically, or emotionally, they are in a better place to be receptive to whatever it is that we might ask. And with that talk, I opened by talking about how I asked Jane to marry me. I had to do a lot of presuasion. I had blown it pretty big for quite some time, and we even weren’t going out weeks before I asked her to marry me, but ultimately she said yes.

And part of my presuasion was on her [00:33:00] birthday. I sent her a dozen roses at work. We worked together. And of course she liked that. And I asked if I could take her to dinner and she’d agreed. So I showed up at her apartment with another dozen roses and a bottle of wine. She really liked that. And when we left for dinner, I had rented a Silver Cloud, rolls Royce and Chauffeur.

Maureen: Wow.

Brian: And he drove us to downtown Columbus at the Old One Nation restaurant. So we rode the glass elevator up and then had this romantic dinner overlooking of the city. And in the back of the rolls, I popped the question. People get that right? I mean, people know when you set the stage romantically, it makes it easier for others to say yes, but we need to take that same mentality to other things that we do.

Here’s an example. What can I do if I’m gonna go to a training event? I was just in San Antonio last week. I spoke to 65 salespeople at an insurance company before the event, I asked the organizer, can I get the name of everybody who’s gonna be at the event? Because I’d like to connect with them on LinkedIn beforehand.

Now all of a sudden they’re seeing, you [00:34:00] know, it’s, uh, who’s this guy, Brian, who’s coming in to talk? Oh, wow. He reached out to connect with me, sent a personal note and replied. When I replied and I see his background, the other thing I asked him to do was to watch the TED talk. Now they see me and they hear me and they can also see a softer side of me where how I ask my wife to marry me.

And I got kind of choked up when I talked about that in the TED Talk. So it sets the stage for completely different experience. When I ultimately arrive and I start doing the training, it’s like, Hey, this guy Brian, I’m connected to him. I know him. I really like that story he told about his wife. If I didn’t do that, it would be less of an experience for those people.

So I try to take that mentality and say. Whatever it is I’m gonna do, how can I set the stage beforehand to have the best opportunity to be successful in the moment?

Maureen: Now let’s go to the C Cialdini Institute. One of the things that’s interesting to me is you’ve talked about 90 years of research, so this isn’t just some dude [00:35:00] started calling himself an institute.

It. Significant science behind the work of influence and persuasion.

Brian: Robert c Cialdini is the most sighted living social psychologist in the world on the science of influence. That’s what he has dedicated his career to, and the institute was developed last year. Now he had a company and still has it called Influence at.

But the Cialdini Institute was developed by Boss Wilders and Robert Cialdini, together with the thought of trying to be more global in bringing out his message about the science of influence. So what it does is there’s a micro learning course. It has actually led by Dr. C Cialdini himself, where anybody can now participate in that training.

In the past, they would’ve had to hire a certified trainer like myself, and then I would go to their organization and I would put on a multi-day workshop. I had lots of people here in Columbus where I live, who were saying, man, I’d love to go through your training. Well, if your company’s not hiring me to come in, [00:36:00] I don’t do open workshops.

And, and there certainly wasn’t an opportunity for people that outside of this area, but with the micro learning, anybody in the world can now go and hear directly from Dr. Cialdini about the principles of persuasion and their application. The interesting thing that the vision for the institute is once you have that base training with Dr.

Jalini, the application of that into whether it’s sales or insurance or some other field, there are so many opportunities to build very specific training on top of that. And so it’s a real opportunity for people to not only learn from Gini himself, but then start having people who have been putting it into practice for, like my case, decades with salespeople to learn then very specifically from them how to utilize it.

It’s very exciting in it’s global vision and their, uh, utilizing technology to translate into other languages and, and it really is gonna have a huge, huge impact for people. Who want to [00:37:00] understand how to ethically influence others.

Maureen: So I assume it’s an online distributed kind of platform?

Brian: Yes, and the thing that I find interesting is how much backend support they give for people who take it to the next level.

So you can go through the training, it’s certified as a Cialdini certified practitioner, and you get a badge and that stays with you forever. You can go a step further and become a Cialdini certified professional, and that allows you to bring that training maybe into your organization and coach people around that training.

They give a tremendous amount of support, backend support for people who go through and become coaches. And so as a faculty member, one of the things I do, I get online every month with these people from around the world and I will teach ’em very specific application of the principles in selling. There’s an individual named Ho Kim, and his background is coaching.

He gets online once a month and he is talking about how do you use these principles in coaching? They’ve got Ed Tate, who’s a world champion, uh, Toastmaster speaker, and he is talking about how do you take child [00:38:00] eating principles and utilize them to build your speaking business and get more opportunities.

So that’s the thing to me that distinguishes what they’re doing from so many other organizations that train you. And then both just lead you. You’ve gotta great opportunity to keep learning, to help build your business, and by them building their business, it’s bringing. Cialdini’s message out to the world.

So it’s a win for both.

Maureen: You picked him versus other training programs. What is it about his research in addition to his delivery method? Because you’ve been certified for a long time. Yeah. So you selected this before the micro learning was available?

Brian: Yeah. Uh, when I came in contact with Robert Cialdini, I think it was 2003, when a coworker gave a video to my boss and I, and when I watched it, the light bulb came on.

My first thought was, holy cow, the psychology he’s talking about is the underpinning of all selling. It explains why some approaches work and why some don’t. And I was involved with sales training, so it appealed right away. The second thing I [00:39:00] really liked was it was all backed by research. This wasn’t motivational hype.

This wasn’t fluff, this wasn’t do as I do. This was grounded in research. And then the third thing was his stance on ethics. He was very clear about non manipulative ways, and I like to think that I’m a moral person. So all three of those just really hit home with me and I began to use that video and some other material in some of the training I was doing at the insurance company.

As fate would have it, Cialdini and I came in contact and ultimately I got certified in 2008 to be one of his trainers. But back then, through Influence at Work, there was only a dozen of us around the world and a company could say, Hey Brian, can you come in and put on the two day principles of Persuasion Workshop?

And I still do that, but that opportunities were somewhat limited when you only have a dozen to two dozen at any one time around the world. But Maureen to the question, what about him? In addition to his work, when I had [00:40:00] dinner with him, I went to Arizona to go through the workshop and my boss and I had dinner with C Cialdini and his wife.

And when he asked about how we were using his research in our business. We began to talk about that. He leaned forward, his eyes got wide, his smile grew and you could tell he was genuinely excited to hear how his life’s work was impacting our organization. And I just remember thinking, this is a guy I wanna be connected to.

So as I said, I was able to get certified and, and have now had an ongoing relationship with him for more than 20 years.

Maureen: You do LinkedIn learning courses with persuasion and influence as well, right?

Brian: Yes.

Maureen: I’m just thinking as a person who does leadership work a lot, I’m curious how one develops that skill.

Learning about persuasion and influence. Is this a course I wanna take? Do I have to show up for days and weeks? Do I have to go through a practicum? What does that look like?

Brian: When somebody goes to the Cialdini Institute as an individual, they can go through the [00:41:00] training themselves. All they’ve gotta do is click on a button, go through, fill out everything.

The course itself is approximately six hours of Cialdini teaching, but when you throw in all of the additional, like, um, there’s little quizzes, there’s activities, there’s things like that, you’re gonna probably spend nine hours or so on the course, but it’s self-paced. When you go in, you’ve got a year to finish the course.

Obviously I’m a proponent of this. I think it can make a huge difference in terms of your success and happiness. So I always encourage people go through that course rather quickly. You can still, at any point in the next year go back and look at other parts and refresh your memory. So that’s the simple way that people would go through that.

Then organizations might say, Hey Brian, could you help us with this? And so I’m gonna be working with a client here in the future. They’ve got a dozen people who are gonna go through the workshop. What’s different when they go through as an organization is they’re going to have eight one hour follow up group coaching sessions with [00:42:00] somebody like me, where we’re reinforcing the learning, but they’re also working on real world situations that are pertinent to their business so that they finish that training.

They’ve got an action plan ready to put into place. The other benefit when they go through in that fashion is they have opportunity a half a dozen times throughout the year to interact with Cialdini or other faculty members as they put on these live sessions. So really when they do that corporate route, they’re getting almost 24 hours of training if they avail themselves at the course, the coaching and all of the, uh, online opportunities with faculty members.

Maureen: If the corporation goes through it. So I have all my folks sign up for the C Cialdini Institute training. We would go through it, but we would still do the online delivery.

Brian: Yes.

Maureen: And then we would work with you or other coaches so that we amplify our impact.

Brian: Right. Because it’s not about the knowing, it’s about the doing.

And you know, as we’ve talked about this and, and. I can see that you clearly get everything that I [00:43:00] talk about. I’m sure your listeners are getting it. It makes sense. It’s human behavior and they can think of times where they behaved in accordance with what I’m sharing, but it’s the strategic thought process and application that makes all the difference.

Persuasion, I talked about that. I’m sure everybody gets it. Like, oh yeah, if you do the certain things to set the stage, you’ll probably have more success. Problem is most people don’t do that. They may know it, but they don’t do it. So we’re really looking to affect behavior change for the people who go through the workshop, because one, it’ll benefit them, but two, it also ultimately helps the institute to put out successful students.

Maureen: I’m thinking building habit. That’s what a lot of our coaching is. It’s not that people are always learning something that is novel. It’s consistently applying what they know in the situation in their daily lives when they’re busy and overwhelmed.

Brian: Well, most people know enough about healthy living to live healthier lives.

They probably know a few things they shouldn’t eat, a few things they should eat. They [00:44:00] know rudimentary things about exercise, maybe as minimal as walking. There’s not a lack of knowledge. There’s a lack of putting into practice, and that can be for a variety of reasons, busy lives and any number of other things.

It’s usually not the lack of knowledge that’s the problem. It’s the behavior change to implement, to do the things that we know. Would be ultimately in our best self-interest.

Maureen: So it’s having an accountability partner in that way?

Brian: Yeah. I was thinking of my old running partner. It was 20 years ago when I was trying to qualify for the Boston Marathon, and Liz lived right up the street from me, and every morning at 5:00 AM I walked up to the corridor of her house and there were times I didn’t want to.

I knew she’d be outside and she would say, darn it, I didn’t wanna go out and run state, but I knew you’re gonna be standing there at the corner. And so we both ended up keeping each other accountable to do something that was important to us. But you know what? When it’s like 10 degrees outside, it might be a little nicer to stay inside except for out bad.

You’ll feel knowing your partner is [00:45:00] standing on the corner waiting for you.

Maureen: Yep. In fact, I was thinking about yoga this afternoon, and hot yoga on a Monday afternoon isn’t always what I want to do after a weekend.

Brian: Once you’ve finished it, you’re always glad.

Maureen: Mm-hmm. You’ve talked about the principles, but how we learn and practice them is really the magic.

Being able to talk to friends at a cocktail party about liking and reciprocity is of very limited value. If I don’t create in my team a sense that I like them. And putting their interest and their success at least equal to my own, if not ahead, and that we put the organization’s goals on par with all of that so that we mutually succeed.

Brian: If we’re not putting into practice, if we are only talking about these things because we find that interesting or we know about them. We’re not gonna benefit. It’s no different than somebody who talks about the healthy living, but doesn’t actually do the things. The more you put it into practice, [00:46:00] the easier it becomes because it becomes second nature.

Maureen: One of the things we say is required for innovative leaders. Mindset and behavior is inspiring followership. So one is understanding followership and understanding follower types and those things, but the other is inspiring and it seems like influence is what’s required to inspire, not tell.

Brian: It’s interesting you bring that up, Maureen, because I’ve had people, after I get done with the talk, use the words motivational or inspirational, and I never considered myself either of those because if you think of motivational speaker, there’s a lot of hype that comes with that.

It’s not always good. I don’t consider myself a motivational speaker or an inspirational speaker, but if you’re motivated. Thank you for telling me that. That means a lot. Or if you’re inspired by what I’d shared, that means a lot. So I do think because I am passionate about this, I believe that it can truly benefit people professionally and personally.

I think that passion begins to come through. [00:47:00] That’s what ignites people. Two people can share the same information, and we can tell when somebody believes it and somebody doesn’t.

Maureen: The other thing to build on that, I think of this client I was meeting with last week right now over committed. He absolutely cares about his people, but his people don’t feel cared for.

And so filling that gap between what he feels for them and what they feel from him is just talking to them, connecting with people about something other than, did you get the thing done that was due today? Or We had a problem with the manufacturing run and there was a defect. It’s not the only conversation.

The relationship has to be in place, otherwise it’s transactional only.

Brian: Yeah, and the difference is it’s not about me getting you to like me more. It’s about me using that principle to come to know and like you, that’s where people sense the difference for the audiences I talk to, that’s [00:48:00] the aha moment.

It’s not about me getting someone to like me, even though it will make it easier for them to say yes. That’s not what leads them to believe that I care for them.

Maureen: Brian, thank you so much. Why don’t you let our listeners know where they can find you and the Cialdini Institute?

Brian: Best place would be to connect with me on LinkedIn.

Please put a message in to let me know you heard me on the show. If, if you don’t, I will come back to say, how did you find me? I’d like to understand why people are reaching out. The Cialdini Institute is Cialdini.com. Anybody could go out there and root around and take a look at the offerings that they have.

And then also influence people.boo. That’s my website. Lots of information out there too.

Maureen: Thank you, Brian, for sharing your wisdom with us today, and thank you to our listeners for your wisdom and experience and how you are helping organizations become future ready.

Brian: Thank you, Maureen. I appreciate you having me [00:49:00] on.