Innovating Leadership:
Co-Creating Our Future

Resources:

Betsy’s book, Take the Lead, is available in paperback, and the Kindle version. Her website is betsymyers.com.

Our host Maureen Metcalf posts a newsletter every week on LinkedIn. You can subscribe here.

Maureen’s latest book is Innovative Leadership & Followership in the Age of AI. Find details about the book here, or check out the Kindle version, or the audiobook.

Her other 10 books are available on Amazon here.

Books we’re reading for fun or personal development right now include:

• Take Back Your Power: 10 New Rules for Women at Work by Ancestry CEO Deb Liu, on how to overcome the obstacles women still face in the workplace – especially in tech. It’s in hardback and audio.
• Covert Cows and Chick-fil-A by Steve Robinson; it’s available in hardback, or on Kindle, and as an audiobook.
• The War of Art by Steven Pressfield. Paperback, Kindle, and audiobook.
• Everyday Ubuntu: Living Better Together, the African Way by Mungi Ngomane.  Hardback and audiobook

NOTE: As an Amazon partner, we may make a small commission from books you buy through these links.

Other episodes you’ll enjoy:

Guest(s):

Guest(s) Bio:

Betsy Myers is on a mission to improve leadership by developing leaders and teams who infuse passion and purpose into their organizations by leading from both the head and the heart. Betsy’s insightful keynotes and workshops have inspired executives and managers worldwide to level up their leadership. Her practical guidance helps attract and retain top talent, build an inspirational culture, and achieve impactful results in the rapidly changing workplace.

Betsy is a renowned expert on emerging leadership trends and women’s leadership and is the author of Take the Lead: Motivate, Inspire, and Bring Out the Best in Yourself and Everyone Around You. She is currently a senior advisor at the Warren Bennis Leadership Institute at the University of Cincinnati. She also serves on the Council on Advancing Women in Business for the US Export-Import Bank and the Board of the International Leadership Association. She has extensive experience in the corporate world, government settings, and in higher education.

Previously, she was the founding director of the Center for Women and Business at Bentley University and the executive director of the Center for Public Leadership at Harvard’s Kennedy School. A senior adviser to two U.S. presidents, Betsy served as President Clinton’s White House Advisor on Women’s Issues and was the Chief Operating Officer and Chair of Women for Obama during President Obama’s historic 2008 national campaign. Her extensive leadership background also includes roles at the U.S. Small Business Administration, including heading the Office of Women’s Business Ownership.

Transcript
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Maureen: [00:00:00] This is innovating leadership, co creating our future. I’m your host, Maureen Metcalf, the founder and CEO of the Innovative Leadership Institute, where we help leaders be future ready. Today, Betsy Myers, a renowned expert on women’s leadership and head and heart leadership and the author of take the lead, motivate, inspire, and bring out the best in yourself and everyone around you will help us in that mission.

Betsy, let’s talk about what you’re doing with the Warren Bennis Institute. So we talk about being future ready and yet Warren Bennis has been a leadership expert over. You’re celebrating his hundred years. And so why draw the thread for people whose shoulders we stand on ,

Betsy: It’s so easy to forget the people who brung us to where we are today. Um, Warren Bennis, um, was my mentor [00:01:00] and so when I was so, so honored and lucky to cross paths with him. Um, Um, at the Center for Public Leadership at Harvard in, uh, um, 2003 through seven.

Um, he was the, he was the president of the University of Cincinnati in the seventies, um, for a big part of the seventies. And he was responsible for taking Cincinnati, which was then the Cincinnati College, and turning it into the second largest university in the university state system. So it’s the second largest after, um, University of Ohio.

And, um, and so his legacy there is really important. And it actually started from interest from students who had discovered his work and wanted to learn more about Warren and Bring his work and his, and his teachings into the university. So it started as a student initiative and then the dean of business, a woman by the name of Marianne [00:02:00] Lewis, um, who is very passionate about Warren’s work was kind of the, the person behind making this happen.

So we. Kicked it off last, uh, April with kind of a celebration of a council members, people who had known Warren, people like Tom Peters and Ken Blanchard. Um, and, uh, Doug Conant, the former CEO of Campbell Soup, who had known Warren and could talk about the impact that his leadership work, his writings, his teachings had on their work, and then, and a bigger kind of how his work impacted leadership teachings today.

And, um, we had panel conversations bringing in the community and a big student event, uh, with Raj Sisodia as the keynote speaker, celebrating kind of the launch of this, this center. And the goal is to bring Warren’s teaching. And the teachings of other leadership experts into UC to have an impact on [00:03:00] their students.

Maureen: So why is Warren’s. Foundation so important for leaders trying to lead in a very different

Betsy: You know, it’s interesting because we talked a lot about that. What are the threads of leadership that stand the test of time? And one of the areas that Warren was so prominent in, and really early in, was his belief and work and scholarly, uh, writings About the impact and the importance of self knowledge that it starts with you and that was new when he started to talk about that people weren’t really looking at how does, how do I, you know, how do I show up here and what are the, what gets me to me, that’s our authenticity and what keeps me from me and the things that, you know, all the behaviors we do and, and things about ourself that we’re unaware of [00:04:00] that keep getting in our way of being our best self.

And Warren’s also always said that going down this road is, you know, so easy and so hard, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s a very difficult thing. So that’s a big piece of, and a big belief at Doug Conan and his work, his book touch points. He was also part of Warren Bennis’s Josie Bass imprint. Um, his, he believes deeply as one of the council members that self knowledge is And he teaches that in his institute.

Self knowledge is, we’ve got to begin with that. And what a wonderful gift for students to start with the aspect of self knowledge so early.

Maureen: I taught leadership in the College of Mechanical Engineering at OSU, uh, briefly, and I think my young. Uh, students took that class because they thought it would be easier than an engineering class. No math. And [00:05:00] yet it was the inner engineering of starting with vision and values. Who am I? What do I stand for?

We had them meditate. We had them do a lot of introspective exercises. That’s it. If I think about if I’m in an orchestra, the instrument I play as the instrument, if I’m the conductor, I’m the instrument, right? The little stick isn’t really an instrument. Um, it it’s my arm movements and my facial expressions and how I lean in and lean out as leaders.

Not just our physical motions, but our emotional tenor and our tone is everything to people. We follow

Betsy: don’t realize, but I always say this to leaders, that everyone’s watching you. You know, at everything that you do. And I remember being, uh, did some work with DuPont and I was at a meeting with others, their, um, country leaders. [00:06:00] And Ellen Coleman was the CEO at the time. And she was talking about how everyone is watching everything you do.

And she mentioned that she told a story that she said, kind of off the cuff. Uh, I love Maine blueberries. And she said for the next several months, everywhere I went, people were scrambling to find me main blueberries in my hotel room. She said, I didn’t mean that you all had to scramble around like that.

I meant, I just liked them. And so we have to be very careful what you say, how you act, how you interact with people, because everyone’s watching the leader. So really, really important.

Maureen: it. There’s a story I consulted in the, with the military for a while and some general walks by and says, wouldn’t it be nice if there were white rocks in the garden? And then the next day, some guys out painting

Betsy: Yes,

Maureen: why they didn’t buy white rocks. I don’t know. And maybe this is just urban legend,

Betsy: exactly. That’s such a great example. So [00:07:00] Warren was also big on integrity and character, um, which is a really important, you know, what you stand for and what you do, what you say you’re going to do, walk the talk, walk the walk of being a leader, very important.

Maureen: And, you know, I find for myself that gets harder and harder, not from a lack of integrity, but just rushing through busier and busier days, I’ll find a note to myself that I’ve texted on my phone a week later, that I just forgot to do an intro or something, and I wonder if we pair that integrity with if If one of us says we’re going to do something we don’t send a reminder It’s not that i’m a lying awful person It’s just that

Betsy: Yeah, and also apologies, right, are also part of leadership, too, is like letting people know, oh, oops, slipped, but I’m on it, you know, [00:08:00] and because we all forget to return emails or they get buried, you know, in our email box or whatever we’ve decided to do. So that’s all just being, you know, it’s really about the humanism in us, the human part of us.

That was Warren’s teachings was, we’re all human beings and what, You know, engages us and what inspires us is our shared humanity. So how do we teach leaders to be more human and more connected to their people in a world where we’re less connected or more connected and less connected, right? More connected with our technology, but less connected as humans.

And that’s what keeps people following you to when they feel like they matter. And that was the, that’s really what the leadership field is teaching now. Um, is how do you love on your people? Um, and coming from your place of your authenticity, uh, and, you know, he was really early on, on, on this thinking,

Maureen: So [00:09:00] as you say that I think of the rise of ai and how The counterbalance to that is also the rise of humanness That yes, ai will take on some of the tasks that I as the leader previously did and The importance of connecting with my humans Human workforce and being authentic and vulnerable and self aware and demonstrating integrity is just

Betsy: right, it’s just another example of unbelievable change. You know, that we’ve seen in our world, and I think we were just sorting it all out. Now, I know it’s going to be a really interesting, you know, as we are virtual work versus in person work. And there’s so many issues, right? And generational issues are just what’s the one thing we can always count on in our world is change and massive change.

And how do we as leaders keep up with all of that? AI being a huge piece of [00:10:00] that.

Maureen: as you say that, I think about how the rate of change impacts me and all of the leaders I work with just the, the increased pressure of time staying current. Helping people who are navigating change feel comfortable and safe and also having the time to

Betsy: all of that. I mean, change is like, we all have to step back on that because we all have different relationships with change. So some people love risk and change and a lot of people don’t, but you can’t grow in your career if you’re holding on to old models, uh, that, you know, you’re making decisions based on old information or old models when the world has moved ahead and it’s hard.

It’s not easy, but you have to have, you have to carve out time. [00:11:00] To understand what’s going on and, and, you know, everywhere from your workforce is workforce is changing. So just when we thought we had millennials figured out, oh, gosh, now we have the Z’s, you know, and so it’s like, how is your leader understand, you know, that was one of Warren’s areas too, is the gift of curiosity, the curiosity to, you know, Understand I don’t know everything and the world changing so fast.

So how do I, you know, find out, explore, ask questions that leaders aren’t supposed to have all the answers. I think it’s a relief in a way because the old model of leadership was leader has all the answers. But today’s leadership model is how could I possibly have all the answers? I can’t understand this new generation.

I’ve got to go talk to them and understand what they think and what they’re, where they’re coming from. And, you know, and that’s all part of being a leader, but we all know those leaders are stuck in that old model, you know, of leadership, which isn’t work anymore, so I always say to people, you wouldn’t, [00:12:00] you wouldn’t raise, you wouldn’t deal with your teenager the same way you did when they were three. Right. I mean, you’ve got to adjust. And, uh, so it’s kind of like, how do I adjust to what the situation is in front of me today?

Maureen: So what do you do personally? Because you’re in high profile situations a lot and I assume that means you’ve got to be on when you’re in front of Senior executives from around the world. You don’t get to have a bad day. You don’t get to tired and overwhelmed. How do you manage the volume of change and the ability to

Betsy: I think, you know, for me, when I have a different engagement with an organization, depending on the industry, is that I do a lot of conversations before I even go there. So a lot of prep calls and [00:13:00] with leaders to understand, like, what does success look like for this event or this retreat that I’m moderating or whatever the issue is, the conversation I’m leading.

And so who’s in the room and. What age group, what gender, what culture so that I don’t have a cookie cutter speech that I do or talk. So it’s really formatted to the group. And I, you know, I just last week was with a bank and the week before I was with a manufacturing company that did elevator parts and, uh, tech and medical devices.

So very different. It was very different. The one in New York was my bank was all women. The one in with my, uh, manufacturing company was mostly men. So. Very different, right? And so you’ve got to be able to go in and understand who your audience is. I think that’s the most important. What, what are some of the issues they’re struggling with and what does success look like for that [00:14:00] venue, that event?

So that’s, that’s the homework that you do, which is I find really fun and interesting because I feel lucky to have the ability to work with different. Kinds of people in different industries with different goals, but the end of the day, no matter what industry, no matter what part of the world I’m in, people want to feel like they matter and that’s, you know, that all comes down to the human part.

So what are people dealing with and how do we get back to the human aspect and also what gets results and so leadership, you know, all of these organizations I work with, they’re trying to get results, happier people, bigger profits. Yeah. Happier and more effective leaders. So what does that look like? And, but that’s what I love about it because no matter, you’re working with people who are running plants or people who are dealing with banking.

Or people who are doing it in real estate. They’re all trying to figure out how do I create the most effective, [00:15:00] happy, engaged, retained team.

Maureen: So that’s what you do as the client work as an individual leader in an in your own right. How do you personally navigate? Because you, you’re traveling around the world, you’re working as you’ve just given an example with very diverse people on any given day. And, and I assume you get tired and

Betsy: we all,

Maureen: the rest of us.

What do you do to manage

Betsy: Yeah. We all do. I mean, for me, I have, when I, uh, am home and I have, you know, two dogs that I love and I do a lot of walks in the woods with them. And, um, I get recharged from that. I try to do yoga, but I also try to talk to. Friends of mine that are in this business. You know, uh, that’s the relationships with people across the leadership field.

That’s why the international [00:16:00] leadership association is so important because it’s a, a home of colleagues and other people, both academics and thought leaders and, uh, people in the corporate world, like me, who are out there working on these issues. And so it’s super important to hear, what are you seeing?

What’s the new research, you know, also, you know, keeping up with some of the new research. So you’ve got to skim the papers, uh, or the, I don’t say papers anymore, the online. Um, um, but sometimes we do, but journals and things like that. What’s the kind of the newest research? So you kind of keep up on it.

And you, you know, sometimes you just have to skim, you know, and something will catch your eye and you’ll go deeper on it. Picking up on some podcasts and things like that. Um, trying to pick up, you know, who’s, who’s out there doing what. And, um, and so I find that really fun though, because, you know, your colleagues are out there and having.

Experiences with clients and learning things. And so I always feel like you’ve got to have [00:17:00] your, you’ve got to have your colleagues that are doing the same thing you’re doing or in different aspects of it, you know, to kind of, how are things changing? What are you seeing? What have you learned? Um, that is helpful.

So community, leadership community is how I kind of stay engaged. I think,

Maureen: So, let’s jump to the International Leadership Association. You, last time we spoke, you were helping organize the 2022 conference. You’ve now stepped on their board. I assume you have lots of people ask you to participate in things, join their boards, be involved. Why the ILA?

Betsy: for the very reason that I was just mentioning is that, um, First of all, it was started, you know, 20 years ago with Warren Bennis had a big role in that. And so some of the people that I admire a lot in this work kind of started the ILA with the goal of creating an entity [00:18:00] for like minded leadership, you know, authors, scholars, consultants, a place to come together to share best practices.

So that for me, that’s my business. That’s my, my, my life, my passion, my interest has always been our leadership. So what’s better than to be part of a community that, you know, and I always look at the agenda of the different speakers and people that are related to the ILA. I’m always so impressed with such a big, you know, reach globally.

Because it’s important, right, in this global world to also bring in global, uh, thought leaders and, and thinkers in this world. So, I do today think I’m very careful of where I, what I say yes to, um, and so it’s really important. The other thing I’m also on, uh, just joined the advisory board of the Partnership for Public Service.

Which is an entity that Doug Conant, who’s the CEO, former CEO of Campbell Soup, who I’ve mentioned, he is the [00:19:00] chair of that. He asked me to join that board or that advisory group. They do leadership training and development of, um, the Washington DC government political appointees and career civil servants.

And I’m very passionate about, you know, leadership and government and contributing how we support all of our civil servants and political leaders trying to make a difference in the world. So I just joined that advisory board. So those are the two things that I right now engaged in.

Maureen: How important we, we often overlook our civil servants and how important they are to enabling smooth functioning and

Betsy: they’re the connector. You know, they, many of them have been, they’re passionate people who care about various issues and the agencies they work. They’ve been there through multiple administrations or multiple leaders because the average political appointee is [00:20:00] somewhere between two years ish. So they’ve seen a lot of change.

We have to support them and they make the difference of how a transition will go, but it’s also important that the political appointees are also have some kind of education guidance, uh, about when you go into an agency and you have career civil servants, how do you intercede? How do you start off in the very beginning?

Because if you come in that first month or so, how the political, I mean, how the personal servants feel about you is really important. You know, are you going to be an open person? Are you going to treat them as if they matter? Uh, and or not. And so I think that’s super important. And this, this organization has been around a few decades and I think it’s really important that we.

You know, they’re also involved in the transition, supporting the campaigns and the transition to leadership and, and governing that, you know, super, super important.[00:21:00]

Maureen: I worked for a number of years with military organizations and they had conceptually similar military officers rotating between locations and career civil servants who remained in an, in In a part of the organization for a much longer span of their career and that ability the beauty and we see it in corporate organizations as well of some people are.

Remain with an organization. Others kind of rotate through either on a promotion path or from one job to the next. And that ability to manage long tenure and new to create a healthy organization

Betsy: absolutely. It’s very tricky and it’s a skill set and it’s also an awareness too. I think of, um, You know, when you’re coming into an organization and there’s, do you have to understand that people have some fear about new leadership? What does it mean? [00:22:00] What’s going to happen for my department? Is it going to be important?

Am I going to still be here? All those questions, you know, and how is this leader going to treat us, uh, treat this team, uh, and that, that makes a huge difference. And so it’s the same training that any new leader comes into any organization. To people that have already been there, uh, that now you’re coming in and what’s, what’s your leadership going to look like?

How do I fit in? Am I going to connect with you? Uh, what, what changes are you going to make that might impact me? And, um, you know, Daniel Moynihan, uh, Senator from New York used to say that if you want to be successful in politics, you have to always remember the pothole theory. And I thought that was really interesting, meaning like your voters can’t think about the environment if they’ve got a pothole inside their house, you know, they’re not thinking bigger issues.

They’re thinking about here’s the issue that I’m dealing with with my house or the pipes aren’t working or whatever it is on my street, you know, like the The, the, uh, light’s not working [00:23:00] or the people are running the red lights. It’s dangerous in my neighborhood. Those are the things that politicians, you gotta, you know, take care of your, uh, your constituents in that way, uh, before you can ask them to be in these bigger issues.

So the same thing. To understand that people are, you know, they, what’s my job and the impact your leadership’s going to have on me. Um, and so how you can help people in that transition to feel safe, to feel like they’re part of the team, that their wisdom, their experience matters, that you’re going to tap into that.

Those are all the things that, that are really, really important and make the difference of a successful leader in that agency or that department or that team or not.

Maureen: So, so that sounds like it circles back absolutely to this question of humanness. And leaders being self aware, acting with integrity, just [00:24:00] kind and decent on some days

Betsy: Kind and decent. I mean, that’s what start there. You know, that’s what in some ways leaders are kind and there’s a difference between nice and kind, you know, because kind is also willing to say, here’s what your job is. Here’s expectations. Here’s where you’re doing well. Here’s where I support you to improve, you know, so kindness is, is a very important aspect of leadership.

Um, and it, you know, and part of that is having The willingness to be honest with your people, um, and in touch with them on a regular basis. So they know what expectations are and you were there through the ups and downs of their personal leadership.

Maureen: which again is, just takes energy because we’re having our own ups and downs and then we’re surrounded by people having their ups and downs. And. If we don’t have enough [00:25:00] capacity, it’s hard to absorb the ups and downs of people around

Betsy: the interesting thing is That’s where you have to make time for because your people, you’re only as successful as your people. And so it’s really, it’s, it’s, you know, an example of that is Southwest Airlines and they always talked about, you know, they started their company or airline on the concept of love and they had an upside down triangle, which was if you put your people well, you love on your people, then they’ll love on the customers.

And if the customers feel loved upon, they’ll keep coming back. And then if they keep coming back, you’ll make money. So it’s that concept, right? It’s like, start, you got to start with your people. And you know, a lot of leaders will say, I don’t have time. I’m so busy. Well, you have to rethink that because actually your busyness.

You know, is the most important thing is, are your people succeeding? Are your people have the resources they need? Are your people feel like you care about them? Otherwise, you have lack [00:26:00] of engagement, lack of attention that costs money. So it’s really just shifting your brain. What comes first? It’s your people.

Maureen: And conceptually, I think most of us know that it’s just on a moment by moment basis when I have to make a decision. Do I deal with this customer thing? Or do I deal with this other thing? Or do I deal with an

Betsy: So it’s not that, listen, you know, leadership is messy. Leadership is hard. Leadership is a lot. But it’s just making time. It’s a commitment to what matters. You know, I always tell people, leaders, if you want to see what matters to you, look at your calendar. You know, look at your calendar over the last month or two months.

What did you put on your calendar? What’s not on your calendar? And you’ll see what you, what matters to you or what you, How you’re showing up in the world based on what your calendar is. So it’s like anything else, right? If, if I say this matters, but it’s never on my calendar, then you’re not living in integrity.

So you can’t say to your employees, I care about you. [00:27:00] Oh, but every time I get busy, I cancel my one on one meetings. That is something I see in leaders a lot. And when you have a one on one with your, with your boss, and it keeps getting canceled because they’re too busy. What’s the message? The message is you don’t matter.

And so of course, occasionally when there’s an emergency, a one on one has to get changed or, but what I have seen that in unhappy places where the one on ones, the team meetings are canceled over and over again. So it’s, don’t say you mat, they matter. Your people matter if you never meet with them or the only time they see you is when you’re reprimanding.

So that’s just like. They take a look what matters on my calendar. What are the things I can shove off delegate to make time for the things that matter and time for my people?

Maureen: You know, it’s interesting because I’m, um, I coach a lot [00:28:00] of people and, and some of them are senior executives who are also frustrated that they get shoved off. It’s not like we just shove off our junior people, but our VPs SVPs C’s get shoved off to maybe even more often because we assume they’re there and they don’t need it.

And yet they all also require Those conversations to be generative so they can go off and do the big things they’re responsible

Betsy: You know, we’ve come to Where did we get this this crazy busy badge of honor? Can’t breathe not enough hours in the day but if you’re really honest if you really look like what is the What is the most important things I have to do today? Those are your A’s You know, and those are the things I have to do today.

Bees are important, but maybe not today, where we get messed up as humans, as people working leaders is in the season. D’s what are the [00:29:00] things that I don’t need to do or can give to somebody else? But oftentimes we look at your day and say, look at all the things I did that were season D’s that never were my A’s.

So leaders who are most successful are willing to say, be focused on what is the most important. Uh, thing that needs to get done in my day and and part of that is supporting your people to get so they’re clear about what’s most important for them. Because when I ask leaders often, what’s what’s the number 1 reason why someone failed on you in your organization around your team?

And a lot of times the answer comes back, they weren’t really clear what their job was. So they weren’t really clear about this because everyone has so much coming in at them too. And we’re sitting on our computers all day with email coming in until we have this life of disruption. And so how do you help your people to understand what is the most important things?

What does success look like for them as long as well as what success looks like for me. [00:30:00] So if you’re just running crazy all the time and busy and not connecting with your people, then your people make decisions on what’s the most important thing that might not be for the organization, right?

Maureen: Hm. Agreed. I blame it on Marvel Comics. We, we have this world of superheroes and, and are we all supposed to meet that kind

Betsy: Yeah, I, it’s, yeah, no, it’s hard. This is, you know, this, these are not easy leadership and, uh, is not easy. These it’s messy and, but we have to make decisions and carve out time to think and read and, you know, address the changes and it’s not easy. It’s not easy at all. There’s no, there’s no silver bullet in all this, of

Maureen: Now, it’s interesting as we’re talking about calendars, I put focus time on my calendar and that’s the first thing to go. [00:31:00] It ends up being responding to email,

Betsy: Right. But you have, that’s discipline. I always tell people, right, it’s like discipline to say, you know, it’s really easy to do that, right? Because you just start looking at your email or your phone and you’re like gone. It’s gone. You’re 30 minutes later, you’ve, you pull your head up. So like anything, right?

It’s a discipline to say. I’m not going to go down. I’m not going to get back on my computer right now or a glance to see if it’s super important and then shut the top down and do whatever it is that’s most important. So that’s the problem is that we’ve learned that the research shows that multitasking and all the stuff we’re trying to do, you’re on a zoom, but you’re checking your texting and you’re returning something.

You’re not paying attention to the zoom. And then you’re like, now, what did you just say? Right? So when you think about your most effective self is when I have less I do the most important things and I’m focused in and, you know, it’s like, I call it the inbox versus the outbox. So most leaders, most [00:32:00] people live an inbox life.

They’re just responding all the time to the emails that come in, the calls that come in, and oh my God, the random calls that come in that are just, uh, you know, it’s just unbelievable. So to be able to say, okay. I’m gonna be more focused on the most important things that conserves your energy as well. Uh, because I think there’s this, you know, going from a call to the emails, but just being interrupted all the time is not good for our energy.

Maureen: It actually impairs brain functioning.

Betsy: Yes, exactly. So yeah. So I think it’s just a choice of discipline of like, I’m going to, I’m more intentional as being more intentional about how I live my life. Because your life is a, is a, It’s a reflection of your days, right, and your days are a reflection of your hours, so it’s how do you want to live [00:33:00] those instead of just being, and listen, I find it, it’s really hard to, I have those days where I just, you know, I just responding and reacting all day and, It’s you know and sometimes you have a couple hours like that that you have to do because stuff’s coming in But to be more intentional overall Of what matters to you and what is most important and being able to say no to things As well is really important.

That’s you know Jim collins work, you know It’s like it’s more important to know what you’re not going to do than what you’re going to do so say no to the things that aren’t as important or that you just Can’t get to or that are energy draining.

Maureen: So let’s now shift gears. We had talked about latest research. What are you earlier in the conversation you said, staying current, skimming and then deep diving into things that are really interesting to [00:34:00] you. What have you found?

Betsy: Well, there’s a, there was a couple articles that came out recently, one in the Harvard Business Review, and the title was, Why Gender Bias Persists Even When Organizations Try to Curve It. And then Forbes just did, uh, an article saying, New Data Shows Women Are More Negatively Stereotyped at Work Than Men.

And, um, these studies were 29, 000, uh, women, managed track employees. We’re studied and what they found was that when we were assessing female leaders, people often struggle to see women’s potential and that leadership is still even in 2024 is often associated with men and it’s a bias that disadvantages women and, um, what’s interesting is that women were less likely.

To be promoted despite higher performance ratings than men. [00:35:00] Women are still seen as having less future potential than men. And even when women outperformed prior ratings of their potential, manager still rated them lower future potential. So it’s really interesting and what came out of this research too was a syndrome called the tall poppy syndrome, which was kind of impacted women who kind of put their heads up and that were successful.

There was less trust, uh, you know, less trust in their leadership. And that’s really, I find really, really interesting, um, that we’re still in 2024, we’ve made so much progress, but it’s always sometimes it feels five steps forward, three back.

Maureen: It seems very disconcerting that that kind of gender [00:36:00] bias persists. And I wonder in, I think back to when I started my career decades ago, and there were things like dress for success and how you looked and behaved in the workplace. To have the best probability of being successful. Do we have a current version of that, that in, I hate to say we have to do this, but if we have to do follow a recipe that increases our probability, what does that look

Betsy: Well, I think we have to talk about, I think there’s an implicit bias that, um, that has to be addressed. And I think that’s in some of the organizations, because, um, you know, it’s, it’s something that has to be talked about, because. We think about the biases, you know, that we have, but implicit bias is not even [00:37:00] realizing, right, that women have the bias and men have the bias.

So how do we, how do we really address this? Um, it’s, you know, I guess sometimes we think, well, maybe we’ve made more progress than we have. Um, because we have, or see, we see women in more, you know, leadership roles, although we’re still only a small fraction of the fortune 500 companies in leadership. Uh, we are making progress, you know, in many of the corporate world.

Accounting firms and banks, we’re seeing. 20, 25 percent women in the C suite. So it is improving, but we still have a long way to go. And so when you start to look at why aren’t we moving faster, you know, it’s kind of interesting that we still in 24, still even a woman super successful and on the leadership track, we still have trouble seeing her potential.

So she’s a senior, you know, EVP somewhere. But we can’t quite see her as CEO [00:38:00] where we can see men. Wow. He’s done a really good job. He’ll, he’ll grow into the job. And you know, then it starts with like, so if that’s the situation, then no wonder women struggle with the imposter syndrome, which is, wow, I guess I don’t have everything.

I need to work harder to have, you know, the job description has 10 things. I have eight, you know? So it’s this connection between, What’s come at, you know, the bias that’s come at us from both genders and then the bias I put on myself from my own lack of confidence or imposter syndrome, which 75% of women have at some point in their career.

And I’m very interested in the imposter syndrome and how that impacts it to where it’s coming from. You know, the research shows that, wow, it’s coming from different, you know, different internal angles and external angles. Yes,

Maureen: So if I’m [00:39:00] holding myself back and, And I have read different research, but it all points to as women, we are less confident in our own abilities than men are in their abilities. So we’re, we’re not going for the opportunities unless we feel uber prepared. Where on average, our male colleagues would go for the same opportunity and they don’t require as much preparation as we feel we do, again, on

Betsy: met a young man at a conference recently and he was telling me we were talking about this, this subject and he said, you know, it’s interesting because I’ll look at a job description. I mean, I’ll look at a job that’s come out that’s posted. I’ll look at the title. I’ll skim, he goes, I’ll just skim the job duties or the job requirements. He goes, I just go for it. And I don’t think I know there’s probably women like that, but I [00:40:00] have met very few that would just look at a title and go for it, you know, and just skim the job requirements. So there’s a difference there, of course, on average because there’s not all women or all men because men also have the imposter syndrome as well.

They tend to, on average, just push through it a little, a little bit more. And men often have more informal networks, uh, mentors. More informal mentors who grabbed them and, and, uh, support them. So that’s why a lot of companies have put in more formalized mentor programs and sponsorship programs for women, which we do see success with a lot.

Um, but it’s interesting when you still see, I really find it fascinating. That such bias is still so prevalent. on these issues that we’ve been grappling with for so many years.[00:41:00]

Maureen: So, say a little bit more about the tall poppy syndrome. You mentioned it,

Betsy: so I’d never heard that term before. So that’s new to, was new to me as well. Um, but yeah, basically, so it’s really about how the tall poppy syndrome is how ambition is still negatively seen in women. So women who are ambitious, who are standing out, Uh, and are successful still leads to criticism. And, uh, and for some reason, the report showed that women who are more accomplished are often seen as more suspect. Less trustworthy. Like they’re so ambitious. Look at them, you know? So, and I think that comes from women too, women judging other women, which we are making strides in female alliance, which I think is really important in the workplace. We’re seeing of, you know, that’s [00:42:00] shifting a little bit with women supporting women to women, female alliance and male allies, but there’s something, the tall poppy syndrome is women sticking her head out.

And, and whose ambitions and successful that leads to criticism and lack of trust. In their, you know, in their motives and, um, but with men, we don’t have problems with men who are ambitious because we’re just, we’re kind of used to that, right? Like, it’s just, and, um, yeah, so it’s fascinating. I, this is just really come out in the last month, this research.

So I just came across it in the last month. So I find it really fascinating.

Maureen: It’ll be interesting to see again what, what are the antidotes because over the years and decades, it seems like we resolve or, um, [00:43:00] make progress on an issue and then a variation emerges and then we make progress and a variation

Betsy: yes, exactly. Um, it is like kind of five steps forward, three back. Right. And so it’s like, you know, what, what is that? And, but I think with every generation it is getting better, you know, but I think we, we still have a ways to go and companies are, most companies are committed to some aspect of.

Gender advancements, um, because what we’re seeing is that, you know, like in the financial industries, um, we’re seeing that women prefer working with women. It’s something like 70 percent of women leaders would prefer a woman. Investment advisor. Um, 60 percent of women buying houses would prefer a woman advisor.

I mean, realtor, um, the consumer spending that women have done. 80 percent of consumer spending is done by women. Look at [00:44:00] every category down from how women buy houses. Uh, do vacations, homes, cars, uh, the percentage of women that are making decisions. So if you look at all the numbers and you’re saying, wow, women are having such influence.

Women have elected every president since Ronald Reagan. So the influence that women are having, um, is, is really, is huge. But it’s not always equating to what we’re seeing in corporate America and actual leadership positions. And we still are, you know, in Congress, about 24 percent are women in our U. S. uh, House and Senate.

Um, same with governors and state legislation. So legislators, so we still are, you know, have a ways to go with equality there. Um, so I guess it just, you know, I would think we’d be a little bit further than we are today in 2024.

Maureen: Well, one of the things I take from this, the [00:45:00] idea of implicit bias that for many of us. Not all of us, probably we are carrying some semblance of that bias and just asking the question when I’m evaluating my female counterparts, do I have any bias

Betsy: Yes. And, and yes, the answer is, you know, for some of us, um, you know, it’s, um, I think that’s the implicit, that’s the importance of the implicit bias conversation, is to step back and go, where am I? You know, where, where, where am I, what biases of I carrying, you know, that maybe I haven’t really been honest about or aware of.

Maureen: that would be my one takeaway to anyone listening male or female. What biases do I carry? And that loops back to Warren Bennis’s, or the conversation about Warren Bennis. What do I know about [00:46:00] myself? What do I not know about myself? And how do I increase my self awareness? Is asking where are my bias?

Unfortunately,

Betsy: we, we definitely have to be honest because it’s, it’s not like all women are supporting all women. You know, it’s, if you look at our elections, uh, it’s not all women are voting for the women candidates and, and nor should they, right? Because you want to vote for the best candidate, but I think you have to ask, do I see this woman having the leadership potential, you know?

And, and why don’t I, you know, if, if I don’t. And, um, so those are the kinds of questions to be, to bring self awareness back to, and having these conversations in the workplace.

Because it’s interesting. It’s a very interesting, if you think about where we are in our history, Kamala Harris stepped up, she took the, when the president dropped out of the race, she, and he, uh, he basically said, I am in support of her, my vice president. He stepped [00:47:00] up. She didn’t have to do that.

She could have said, nope, let’s go to an open, I’m not ready for this. And to, to run for president in a short three month period like that is incredible. So, um, it’s, it’s very admirable. And so some of what we’re seeing, and if you look at the tall, tall poppy syndrome, there are women who, Oh, I don’t know if I can really see her as Her president, even though she’s been prosecutor, attorney general, US Senator, and vice president, so incredibly qualified to be president.

But some people can’t quite see her making that leap to president. And that’s a bias. Um, some of it is I need more information. I don’t have it. She’s new to me, or, which makes sense and absolutely understandable. But is there a bias that thinks, ah, I don’t quite trust her. I think she’s a little suspect. You know, and wow, I don’t quite, [00:48:00] can’t quite see her as the president of the United States. That’s interesting. Right. I think that will be analyzed and we’ll see, will women step up, uh, to, you know, because, you know, right now the, the, you know, Donald Trump is running way ahead with men. Um, and behind with women,

and it’ll be interesting to see how, how this plays out and when it is analyzed, you know, what we’ll learn about the tall pet poppy syndrome as it relates to Kamala.

Maureen: Betsy, thank you so much for joining

Betsy: Of course.

Maureen: conversation again. I’m delighted to get to talk to you and share your insights with our listeners. And where would listeners

Betsy: Uh, probably the best is, uh, my website, which is betsymyers. com.

Maureen: Beautiful. Thank you.