Innovating Leadership:
Co-Creating Our Future

Resources:

Rustin’s book is Unleashing the Bond: Harnessing the Power of Human-Animal Interactions. It’s in paperback at https://amzn.to/47D25d1.

His follow-up book is Unlocking the Bond: The Power & Paradox of Human-Animal Interactions; it will be available in January.

Our host Maureen Metcalf posts a newsletter every week on LinkedIn. You can subscribe here.

Maureen’s latest book is Innovative Leadership & Followership in the Age of AI. You’ll find details about it at https://bit.ly/LeaderInAI, or check out the Kindle version at https://amzn.to/44buVz8. The audiobook version is now available at  https://amzn.to/4dTCleZ.

Her other 10 books are available on Amazon here.

Other episodes you’ll enjoy:

– The Bonobo Sisterhood: Ape Society’s Lessons for Leadership with Diane Rosenfeld

– Why Pet-Friendly Means Productivity-Friendly with Lisa Campbell

– Our Emotional Recession: How to Lead When People Are Depleted with Joshua Freedman

Guest(s):

Guest(s) Bio:

Dr. Rustin M. Moore, professor and the Rita Jean Wolfe Endowed Dean in Veterinary Medicine, is the 11th dean of The Ohio State University College of Veterinary Medicine having served in this role since September 2015.

A two-time graduate of the college, Dr. Moore returned to the college in 2006 and served as the chair of the Department of Veterinary Clinical Sciences, executive director of the Veterinary Medical Center, associate dean for Clinical and Outreach Programs, and associate executive dean before becoming dean.

He has taught both at Ohio State and at Louisiana State University (LSU)

A native of Spencer, WV, he earned a BS degree (1986), summa cum laude, from West Virginia University; a DVM (1989), summa cum laude, and a PhD (1994) from The Ohio State University. He became a diplomate of the American College of Veterinary Surgeons in 1994.

He is the author of Unleashing the Bond: Harnessing the Power of Human-Animal Interactions, a comprehensive work that delves into the profound human-animal connection, weaving together history, science, culture, demographic and socioeconomic data, and compelling stories from over 100 interviews into an informative and captivating narrative. His follow-up book, Unlocking the Bond: The Power and Paradox of Human-Animal Interactions, builds upon the foundation of Unleashing the Bond, focusing on and raising awareness about the impact and contradictions of the human-animal bond.

Transcript
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Maureen: Welcome to Innovating Leadership Co-Creating our Future, where we help leaders be future ready. I’m your host, Maureen Metcalf, the CEO, and founder of the Innovative Leadership Institute. Today I’m honored to be joined by Dr. Rustin Moore, a nationally recognized veterinary leader, and the author of the Powerful new book, unleashing the Bond, harnessing the Power of Human. Beep. The powerful new book, unleashing the Bond, harnessing the Power of Human Animal Interactions. Dr. Moore works also as the Dean of the College of Veterinary Medicine at the Ohio State University. His work explores the profound and often transformational connection between humans and animals. And [00:01:00] today we’re gonna explore how that bond can.

Form and ex beep. And today we’ll in explore how that bond can inform and inspire our leadership. So Rustin, thank you for joining me.

Rustin: Thank you so much, Maureen, for having me and uh, so great to always see you. Thank you.

Maureen: Um, your book is deeply personal and also scientifically grounded the book. You describe the human animal bond as not just emotional, but physiological and psychological. How do you see that bond reflecting the qualities of effective leadership? And, and I’m gonna back up and say, just tell us a little bit about the book and why you wrote it.

Rustin (2): Well, thank you for that. Um, I actually wasn’t planning to write a book, um, but um, as, um, a company had seen my TED talk from back in 2016 called The Power [00:02:00] of a Pet, and I had done that primarily just to, to bring some, uh, recognition to the college at that TEDx series. And, um, anyway, the, they had seen this and the founder of the company asked me or emailed me and said, I think you should write a book.

Uh, and, and use the Ted, the TED talk as the basis for that. And I said, well, thank you very much. I’m, I don’t have time and I’m not the right one. I said that a few times. Finally, I got on a, a, a call like this and he convinced me to write it and that. So, uh, if I’d have known then what I know now, I probably wouldn’t have done it just because of how much work it’s been.

But I’m glad I didn’t know because it’s also been one of the most. Meaningful, uh, things I’ve done in, in recent time. Uh, and that’s because of digging deeper into what I already knew and learning more, but also interviewing over a hundred people and hearing their stories, which really, uh, inspired me. So that’s sort of how I got involved with that.

Maureen: [00:03:00] Okay, Rustin. Um, because you have an external mic, every time you hit your hand on the desk, I hear a big thump.

Rustin (2): Okay.

Maureen: So, um, just mindful if you’re talking with your hands. Keep ’em up here.

Rustin (2): I didn’t think I was, but Okay.

Maureen: Okay. Thank you. Um, so talked about going deeper. Do you wanna share anything about what that looked like for you? Uh.

Rustin (2): Beep. I have a question.

Maureen: Yeah,

Rustin (2): When you say, uh, do you mean the human animal bond or what, what, what’s the context of your question about going deeper?

Maureen: I was just trying to build on the, you’ve done over a hundred interviews. Tell us a little bit more about what that looked like.

Rustin (2): Yeah, I learned a, a number of things, uh, from, [00:04:00] uh, all the people that I interviewed, and it seemed like, although there were many common themes throughout, I’d hear certain things said in different ways, but basically saying the same thing about the bond, but also. Many people said something that made me think deeper and, and actually go explore that, uh, whatever that topic was, which is how Book one has now turned into a series because, um, there were things that made me, hadn’t considered, uh, and people would say something I would think, Hmm, that sounds unusual or that sounds interesting.

And then I would either go. Do more research or I’d go out on social media and say, does anyone have an experience in this area that they’d like to share? So it just sort of cascaded and, and expanded my um, uh, sort of spectrum of things where the human animal bond really has an impact.

Maureen: So human animal bond is an interesting and unusual topic to be talking about on a leadership podcast, [00:05:00] and so I wanted to kind of integrate your work now as the dean of the vet school at OSU for seven years, with 11 years. Wow.

Rustin (2): Yeah.

Maureen: We’ve known each other a long time. So how did, how does leadership integrate with your work on the human animal bond and what can our leaders think about differently based on what you’re learning and what you’ll write in book three?

Rustin (2): Yeah. So I think the human animal bond or just interacting, uh, with animals. Uh, really teaches us some of the most essential qual qualities, uh, of effective leadership in my mind. And if you study the human or the animal kingdom, you know, different species and different um, uh, uh, breeds and things, they actually [00:06:00] interact differently and their leadership comes across differently.

And just like there’s no one type of leadership, that is the only way it can be effective. If you look a, uh, across that in the animal kingdom, you can see how different animals lead in different ways. But I think some of those qualities that come out are the, the, the demonstration of empathy, uh, being present.

Uh, having, you know, a trust or respect, um, and also authenticity. I think that’s something that’s really important. And, you know, animals don’t respond to titles. They’re not, you know, they’re not leading because they’re the, the president or the dean or, or the whatever. And so it’s much of it is about how they create a, a level of calmness.

Yet energy, uh, and create these environments of, of psychological safety for their, their, the, the, [00:07:00] whichever, uh, species of animals, uh, uh, that they’re leading. And I think a lot of that really stems from. Um, you know, uh, a way of, uh, being compassionate and attuned with the, the, the animals around them, uh, and looking out for their, uh, interests.

And a lot of this has to do, there is a biochemical reason for this. And if you think about when we interact with animals, uh, that the science would suggest and show that we are calmed. Uh, by the reduction of cortisol that is released in our bodies, the stress hormone, but we also have an increase in oxytocin, which is a connecting love or, you know, other type of hormone.

And that’s the effect it has. And so some of those same things happen in animals, animals to animals, or happens in animals while we’re interacting with them. [00:08:00] Um, and so it’s really, there’s a biochemical, um. Uh, explanation for why some of these things happen, and it’s really, I think about emotional awareness, uh, physiological balance, and then sort of those, having those authentic relationships, whether it’s in animals or whether it’s in people or in some cases between animals and people.

Uh, and a lot of that goes back to, and if you think about people who train animals, train dogs, et cetera, a lot of those same principles apply.

Maureen: So it sounds like. I, if I were to learn from my dog, who is amazingly present and patient with me, my dog always loves me or appears to love me, kind of no matter what stupid thing I’ve done during the day. Uh, and so a leader, it sounds like a similar quality. Now, certainly as a leader, I still have to hold people accountable and those. [00:09:00] things. I, I can’t be quite as loving as my dog is, but it, it sounds like the presence, the trust, the compassion, the authenticity. I can. I can demonstrate those qualities, but then add in the hardcore business characteristics, which frankly, I assume if I’m the leader of a pack, I’m also in some ways holding my pack accountable so they don’t get killed.

Rustin (2): Right. I, I completely agree with everything you said, and I would add one thing to that. And I think the other thing and, and what you said about your dog is. Your dog is steady regardless of what you do. And so, you know, I think when leaders can be steady despite things that pop up and could stress people out, it provides a calming presence for those around them, just like your dog does with you.

Right?

Maureen: So it’s [00:10:00] cortisol and oxy reduced cortisol, increased oxytocin. So let’s use the university as an example. When things are stressful, you are calm, and I, I wanna make the distinction between calm and. Appearing as if you are not in touch with reality. So yes, I am aware we are facing significant whatever fill in the blank thing is today, and we’re gonna work through this. And I’m gonna create the container, for lack of a better term, where we will be psychologically safe, we’ll work through problems, we’ll be accountable and hold each other accountable, but we’ll do it in a, a respectful, compassionate, steady way.

Rustin (2): I think that’s really well said. And, uh, you know, create that environment [00:11:00]where it’s safe. Everybody can be authentic. There’s no judgment. Uh, and we address whatever this crisis is that has come up. Together because the best solutions are gonna come from a variety of opinions.

Maureen: So how do you help your colleagues on the behaviors of the best in the animal kingdom?

Rustin (2): Well, you know, this is, this is a new space for me in terms of, um, really trying to think about and put into practice what, what we do. But I think it’s, it’s aligned with a lot of the things that. You know, I’ve learned as a leader and you know, when you were coach me, um, that I think are innate or in inherent ineffective leadership.

And again, it’s, I go back to it’s about being present. And when I say present, that doesn’t just mean in the room, but I’m actually listening and I’m taking in what someone is saying. [00:12:00] Um, and I’m not waiting to talk. I’m waiting to learn, um, and, and internalize that. And I think it’s about, you know, having that empathy.

Not that we can know exactly how they are feeling or experiencing it, but we can at least acknowledge that, you know, we understand this is a difficult time. Don’t know exactly how this is impacting you, but let’s work through it together. And it really is, I think the other big part is around trust. How, how do we build that trust so that we can be, um, authentic and not feel vulnerable or so vulnerable that we can’t express what we really want to express in these times?

That could be di really difficult or courageous conversations. Um, so I, I, I think it’s, it’s again, uh, going back to your example, it’s, it’s really, uh, creating a container or a crucible where we can do all those things. Uh. So that we can [00:13:00] support one another and ultimately have the organization thrive, uh, under mm-hmm.

Circumstances that otherwise could be ones that might cause the organization to go off the rails.

Maureen: So as I listen to you, one of the things I wonder. I’m, I’m house sitting right now or or caring for a neighbor’s dog. So I’ve got my dog, neighbor’s dog, and there’s a little sniping and the two dogs trying to control each other in the workplace. We have some amount of herding, sniping, controlling, creating accountabilities, that type of thing. How do you. As a dean and, and knowing you, you’re not gonna just hammer on people and say, I’m in charge. Shut up and do what I say. How do you again, learn from the best in the animal kingdom [00:14:00] about the balance between the pack, where they do snipe and that’s, that’s an appropriate way to. Modify behavior. And I think of at one point we were supporting an organization as a fiscal sponsor that adopted kind of unadoptable dogs and the person who ran it had 50 dogs in our house, which I wouldn’t necessarily advise, but um. Her belief was that the dogs rehabilitated each other. She didn’t do that.

They, she probably did some, but, but the animal kingdom reinforced a set of norms and it, it raises the question that I think often we struggle [00:15:00] with as leaders and as followers. Where is it my space to enforce the norms of the team? Because I think we often kind of foist that on our leaders and say, you’re the boss.

You go figure it out. Rather than you and I are peers and I need to say, Hey Rustin, you did this thing, and that’s not aligned with our norms. So sorry, that was a long preface for the the question, how do you help? Take again, a, a behavior from the animal kingdom about creating a positive work environment is the responsibility of all of us, not just of the PAC leader.

Rustin (2): Yeah, I think that’s a great example. And I guess I would use two examples of animal species where that’s very apparent. One are ants. [00:16:00] And one are Bs

Maureen: Mm.

Rustin (2): and I won’t go into all the details, but they’re, you know, they have defined roles. They, um, they get in line. It’s, it’s about teamwork. Yes, there’s leadership, but there’s teamwork.

And that’s what it takes in a, in an effective organization. Um, and yes, like if we’re gonna create a culture where we can all thrive, um, and the organization, uh. Is, uh, you know, going to maintain its vitality and vibrancy. It takes everybody to do that. It, the one person, the leader can’t do it and can’t be hold solely held responsible for it.

Um, and so I, I think that’s, those are things that I think are really important. And I think the other pieces around this is that if, if, uh, if we think about other ways that, um. [00:17:00] Leaders can be successful, but also organizations or teams. Part of that’s also around resiliency. Um, and if we think about what leads to resiliency, it’s not control, it’s connection, like, connection between individuals, humans, uh, or whether it’s among the animal species.

And just like you mentioned about your, your dog and your neighbor’s dog, they. Yeah, they probably snipe and they probably do other things, yet they are working out their boundaries. Um, I was just visiting a friend of mine in my hometown last weekend, and I took one of my dogs with me and she has two dogs, and just watching them, they’d never met before.

Watching them inside her house, which is their, her dog’s turf, and watching them how they, you know, they. Uh, barked and growled and other things didn’t bite. Uh, [00:18:00] but you, you saw ’em working out their, their differences and yes, there, there became probably some sort of hierarchy. Um, but really it was about setting boundaries and then they kept testing each other.

Um, you know, and, and that’s, that happens among people and organizations. And so, um, I, I think we can, I mean, what I would encourage people to do if they have animals. Or even if they don’t and they’re around other animals, watch the behaviors of animals and how they interact. Uh, whether it’s with animals they know or animals they don’t know.

Maureen: It’s an interesting point about boundaries because we as humans are I think, fairly protective of our boundaries and get. Uh, protect, get angry when people overstep. And yet, to your point, it’s a natural process [00:19:00] of give and take. And yet we live in a world of fences and legal boundaries. And, and yet as we watch humans, dynamic, even in leadership roles. are places where I lead my team and my team clearly leads me on other things. There’s just stuff I don’t know as well, and, and so those boundaries in our organization are pretty permeable. And people who aren’t part of us that may look. In some cases disrespectful

Rustin (2): Hmm.

Maureen: I’m not in charge or people are telling me what to do or a, and yet I would be disrespectful if I’m, were trying to tell our producer how to produce a podcast ’cause I, I have an opinion, but I am [00:20:00] not the expert.

Rustin (2): Yeah. And um, so it reminds me of two things. One, going back to this, um, experience I had this past weekend with these two dogs. One was a female, one was a male. They were litter mates. A few years, a couple years older than my dog. And the two males, my dog, and one of theirs were, were the ones that were sort of testing each other and, you know, working things out.

But the female actually, when they would get a little too rowdy, she would insert herself and sort of break it up. Uh, and, um. Maureen, you, we have a, um, a mutual friend, Aaron and his dog Simon, who, um, uh, is no longer alive, but back when they would go to the park and other dogs would get in fights or get start quarreling, Aaron or, uh, Aaron Simon would step in and just break it up.

[00:21:00] Uh, he, he wouldn’t like growl or bite or any of that stuff. He just intervened. And so I think that’s an example of, um, something that we could consider. Not that we, you know, we jump in and like go like this and say, break it up guys. But you know, it’s a way to redirect a conversation or say, you know, well, I heard so and so say this.

I didn’t really hear him like. Attack you or judge you or whatever. So I think there’s some lessons there that are, uh, relevant.

Maureen: I, it really seems like there are, as, as I listen to you, I think of a group of clients who were. We skied together. So also outside of work, very aggressive, very competitive. Uh, and the phrase I had was deescalate, like, okay, it’s time you get out on the slopes and you go as hard as you can and you wanna win. There were other settings [00:22:00] in a business environment that that level of competition isn’t supportive of your colleagues. And so having, that instance, I was the one who, one, I didn’t ski as well as they could, so I couldn’t compete. But in a business setting, the reminder that just like you talked about different. and different hierarchies in different species. We, we as humans get to bounce between contexts and remembering that the predatory behavior of competitive athletics is not as useful in the office.

Rustin (2): Well, yeah, and you know, among animals, I mean, you know, there are prey animals. Uh, and you know, they, um, it’s interesting also that animals that might sometimes think about, okay, [00:23:00] that’s the predator and this is the prey, uh, might actually in certain situations get along just fine, depending on the environment, the context, et cetera.

Uh, and I’ve read several stories. I won’t go into ’em, but, uh, I think that’s something, and also you said something that made me think of this earlier is I find my, myself in situational leadership and situational followership, uh, all the time. And you mentioned it about, you know, you let, there’s stuff that you work, people you work with that you don’t know that much about, and you take their advice and follow them.

I do that every day. And it’s not just hierarchical. It’s somebody that might be three levels down on a hierarchical chart, might be leading whatever it is, and I’m following them because they’re the content expert. Um, and so I think those are some really important things that, again, go [00:24:00] back to the, the animal kingdom.

Maureen: So let’s shift slightly. We’ve brushed against the topic of. Wellbeing and resilience, both individual as a leader. You and I both have dogs, uh, and it seems like at this point in history, everyone I work with is stressed. Now, maybe it’s that I only get hired to work with stressed people, but maybe almost everyone we know is stressed in some way and. has become more crucial over the time we’ve known each other. ’cause you and I taught resilience to your students and my guess is they’re more stressed than they were back then, it seemed like they were stressed then. Same with leaders. We thought they were [00:25:00] stressed five and 10 years ago. Uh, many of us thought during COVID, you know, we’ve downshift a little bit, we’re gonna keep that level of balance, which I don’t know anyone who kept that level of balance. Uh, and so a long tee up to having pets and that human animal bond is such a crucial, not the only obviously, but such a crucial. Op option for humans to, to maintain their wellbeing. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Rustin (2): Sure. So one of the things that came to mind when you asked that was, you know, I think about wellbeing of individuals or teams and whatever, and I, I sort of think about it as workload and workplace. Workplace being the culture, the environment, et cetera. [00:26:00] Workload is just the volume of work and trying to address those.

And you know, workload, sometimes we can actually manage, not always, but sometimes workplace is a little more challenging because there’s a lot of different people and personalities involved there. But of all of, I don’t know that there was anybody I interviewed that didn’t talk about. How much their pet kept them grounded and when, you know, they’d walk in the door after a hard day of work and the dog, and, and I can say this ’cause my dogs do this.

I can walk in and they’ll be jumping and acting like they haven’t seen me in a week and I’ve been gone an hour. Uh, although I do think they understand more, like they do have a sense of time. I came home last evening after being gone two and a half days, and. You know, it’s like really, really intense. [00:27:00] So, you know, they, whether they, whether they, whether they really are happy to see you or not, they make you feel like they are.

And you know, that leads to a rush of oxytocin, a ru, a rush of dopamine and serotonin, all feel good things at lower blood pressure, uh, and other physiological things. And so I do think. People who have pets that many times, that can be a pop off valve for them, uh, or help them de uh, dere, uh, after a a day.

I also think, I mean, there are, are work friendly, work inclusive, uh, sorry, pet friendly and pet inclusive workplaces where they do seem to have more of a, a levelness to the work environment and, and more and more. Companies are becoming pet inclusive or pet friendly. So, um, the other thing I heard from people was, [00:28:00] again, I, I go back to the word steadiness.

You know, I come home, my dog is steady, or my cat, you know, they, they don’t have moods. I, I would argue that mine have moods here and there, but, uh, for the most part, they’re very steady. And how they respond to you and how they greet you and how they support you. And the other word I heard a couple times, which I’d never heard before, which sent me down this other tangent looking into this was, and this is that pets are democratizer.

And what that they meant by that was a pet does not care if you’re rich. If you’re a Republican, a Democrat, you’re homeless. You’re gay, you’re whatever it is, they see you for who you are. And as long as you treat them well and you know, you, you, you build trust with them. They’re loyal, they’re unconditional love.

[00:29:00] And, and so to me, I was just thinking of that differently after they said they’re democratized. And I said, well, well explain that a little further. That’s sort of, um, what I took away from it.

Maureen: Well, and as you say that I come back to leaders, uh, and wanna reflect on what do we do so that our employees feel like. We are democratizer that we don’t care they’re old or young, or overweight. All the things we value them for their contribution, and especially in a time where we are so politically divided and there’s research. That talks about how individuals don’t wanna follow folks of a different party. [00:30:00] How do we as leaders play that democratizer role? Because we can’t alienate what the, the 30% of the population on either end that are declared D’s or R’s.

Rustin (2): Mm-hmm. You know, and I know this is probably not the, the, the politically correct way to say this today, but to me, uh, it is about. A leader demonstrating that, um, they value people from all backgrounds, all experiences. Uh, they value all ideas and input. Uh, they may make decision, well, they would need to make a decision and it may not jive with certain people’s ideas, but they, at least they’ve authentically been listened to.

It’s about creating that place where you feel safe in expressing your opinion. [00:31:00] You feel like you belong there and that you contribute something. And those are, and what I was going to say, uh, when I preface that is, you know, I, I’ve explained today, just now, I think at least hopefully what I would’ve said before is we need to create a diverse and inclusive workplace, blah, blah, blah.

But I didn’t use any of those words. You, we create a place where everybody feels they, they, uh, can be respected for their opinions. They’re gonna be trusted. They’re gonna be valued. Um, they feel like they, they’re comfortable, they’re safe. Um, and I, you know, it’s, it’s really unfortunate to me that we have basically politicized, DEI for something that it wasn’t.

Um, and it’s really about. Supporting [00:32:00] everyone and giving everyone an opportunity to contribute and be successful and thrive.

Maureen: Thank you for saying that. I know that has been. In your role as Dean, something that’s been crucial to you, matter what word, you stick to it and you have put your energy, you’ve measured results. Uh, you’ve put your heart to this, that it, it is near and dear to your heart in how you recruit, what you do to retain. How you fundraise everything about the college, everything from first time college entrance to any variation of diversity is, has been important in your [00:33:00] students and also in your faculty and staff.

Rustin (2): Yeah, and I think we, again, we can take a lesson from Mother Nature, um, if we’re talking about. Biodiversity. Uh, if, if, if we left Mother Nature alone, the world from a, um, animal plant, uh, et cetera, uh, would, would heal and thrive. It’s when we intervene and we intervene with our prejudices, our biases, our exclusion of people.

And so if we go back to. The animal kingdom, and we look at biodiversity. There’s predators and there’s prey. And, but you know, the balance, uh, the, the homeostasis of, of the world, uh, from the standpoint of of, of that is balanced. And I think we [00:34:00] as humans and leaders could really learn a lot from looking at that.

Uh, just like, I mean, think about Chernobyl. Hey, that was a manmade thing. Um, it happened and it’s, although it’s taken decades, that ecosystem is starting to recover from a biological perspective, plants, animals, et cetera. And so I, I think regardless of what you think about climate change and, and other things, if we look at.

The Animal Kingdom and Mother Nature, we can learn a lot of lessons that are applicable to leadership and decision making that can heal an organization, heal a school, uh, et cetera.

Maureen: You know, as you say, ecosystem and healing. And this gets back a little bit to what I was trying to say about boundaries, but I dunno that I said it [00:35:00] very articulately is if we think of the arc of time, so I think of faculty that you’ve had for 20 years, I think of my neighborhood. And the, the cranky man who used to live next door for 40 years, the, there, there were times when the cranky man would be quite obnoxious and overstep boundaries and all the stuff, and then he. Was encouraged by others to modify his behavior and, and it, it seems like we lost sight of the importance of the ecosystem and the arc of time and that the people around us that we’re working with. Are often [00:36:00] experiencing and especially it seems like more so now a range of events, traumas, loss of parents, the range of things, we aren’t necessarily. Being very effective at compassion. And I think, again, back to the, the pack of dogs, that there is both a herding, bringing people along and of, of boundaries. When you’re limping, we help you. When you’re able to run again, we expect you to run, not limp. And yet with with humans, I don’t know that we have a mechanism to, to think about more of an ecosystem perspective.

Rustin (2): Yeah, and I, you know, [00:37:00] one of the things I think that, um, animals maybe more so than people, uh, forgive and forget. I know they say an el an elephant never forgets anything, but, you know, in terms of relationships, I mean, none of us are perfect. We’re all gonna make mistakes. Some people are more or less forgiving than others, and I, I think there’s a place we could insert some lessons from animals.

But, you know, I, in book two, which comes out in January, I, there’s a couple chapters where I visited two prisons in Ohio. Uh, one rich young county, one in Madison County, and I was interviewing, uh, inmates and these were all male prisoners. Uh, some in for life for various reasons. And, um, I was interviewing ’em because these were men who had been, uh, who had applied for, been trained, accepted [00:38:00] into the programs where they would train or rehabilitate animals.

They would either train dogs to become service animals. Like autism support or others, they would train dogs that were sort of unruly from the local shelter and more unadoptable to become adoptable animals. And they would also nurture orphan wildlife, uh, orphan, you know, baby bunnies and raccoons and opossums, and then they would be released.

You know, I, this is in book two. My, my mo, my grandmother was murdered when I was in the seventh grade. And for a long time I really would have a hard time forgiving such an individual when I went in and met with those prisoners if I had not been in that prison and known that I had driven there and been op let through the door, and I was interviewing them at a coffee shop.

I would not [00:39:00] have known there they were, had done egregious things and they, almost all of ’em, in some way or the other said, I rehabilitated, I, I was rehabilitated more than the dogs I rehabilitated. Or I was X, Y, and Z more than I did for the baby bunnies. And that’s an example of, I mean, these were hardened.

I, I don’t wanna say criminals, but criminals, but yet they were humans. And I, I don’t know, I was really touched by those interviews. Um, one of them, actually, the second prison I visited, uh, I was in a little office that they put me in and they were bringing in prisoner one at a time. And one guy came in, he looked about my age, maybe a little older, thinner, about my height.

And as he walked through the door, he had this big grin on his face and he said, I, [00:40:00] I, when I heard you were coming here, I so hoped I’d get to meet you. And I’m thinking, Hmm, do we know each other? Um, and I said, well, why is that, sir? And he said, because my daughter graduated from your college just a few years ago.

And I’m like, oh, who’s your daughter? And he told me, and I said, oh, I know her. She’s from my home state of West Virginia. Well, it turns out this guy grew up 20 miles from where I grew up, 10 years younger. Um, but you could just see how that, what he described as when he became part of this dog program, how it changed his life.

It gave him purpose. He gave him meaning, it, he felt valued. Um, and so I, again, I think. If, if, if, if we could learn from people and animals like that, that our lives for the, for the most [00:41:00] part, our lives are pretty good compared to many people in the world. Um, and let’s don’t forget that. Um, and, and learn how animals interact and also interact and brighten the lives in the days of, of people.

Maureen: A, as you say that I want to go back to wellbeing and the challenges so many people are facing right now and how. How do we amplify joy we get from our pets and not leave it at the door, back door when I shut my door at home, or leave the door open and let the dog play in the yard in the sun. But how do I bring that sense of steadiness and peace that I get [00:42:00] from Ivy? How do I bring that to work?

Rustin (2): You know, I think, uh, one of the things that we can all do is. Every morning before we head out the door, look in the mirror and say, what am I going, what am I going to do today to make it a better place? And it’s pretty simple. Be kind. If you’re kind to somebody, you’re gonna benefit and so are they. Uh, because you’re going to, I mean, not unlike interacting with an animal, you’re gonna have the release of oxytocin or dopamine because you’re doing something kind.

It could be simply paying for someone’s Starbucks in front of you, or it could just be saying and being really nice to the attendant who’s taking your, your order. Or it could be holding a door or, I mean, it doesn’t have to cost anything. Uh, it can, it’s, it can [00:43:00] be very inexpensive and very effective. Um, and it actually could actually, might be the one thing that day that changes how that person’s day goes.

Maureen: Rustin, what a great message to end on we think about who we are as leaders. And the legacy we leave. And you’ve talked about appreciating diversity, creating an environment of wellbeing, healing, releasing of oxytocin and dopamine, the, the value of presence and steady presence that as a leader. Creating an environment where, I wanna say it’s like a good chili or something. You, you put in a bunch of [00:44:00] different what?

Rustin (2): Gumbo?

Maureen: Gumbo. Okay. I know Louisiana, right, that you put in a bunch of ingredients that are very different sausage and shrimp and spices, and. It becomes brilliant because of the, the mashing together, the cooking and, what’s the word? The it, it simmering

Rustin (2): Yeah.

Maureen: allows each of those unique flavors to both surface and

Rustin (2): In

Maureen: others.

Rustin (2): and infiltrate into others. Yeah. It’s just like doing a, a shrimp boil and you put ’em in there, but you have corn and you have whole potatoes, but when you eat the, the corn and potatoes, you get that flavor of that whole [00:45:00] boil.

Maureen: Beautiful. So how as leaders do we create the environment where. Not, we boil them like shrimp and potatoes, but, but where we, we create the context that allows for each to simmer together and also bring out their unique flavor.

Rustin (2): Well, and it’s like one plus one equals three. Um, and the one thing I, I would say is I, I, what I hope people will take away from this is that having an animal or interacting with an animal on a regular basis can help you be that steady, kind, compassionate, empathetic, you know, because that animal is helping you become that person.

And so when you leave the, the, the home that day. Hopefully you have [00:46:00] that, those characteristics with you that you can, uh, apply and remind yourself and have an a positive impact on other people. A lot of our greatest world leaders over time have, not all, but many of them have had a real authentic relationship with animals, whether it’s.

Former presidents like Lincoln, like Roosevelt, whether it’s Margaret Thatcher, whether it’s Queen Elizabeth, whether it’s you, you know, you name it. Many of ’em have had a relationship, uh, with animals that I think did impact their leadership.

Maureen: Brilliant. So as we close my, my question to our listeners [00:47:00] then is. How do you leverage your relationship with your pet if you have one or your neighbor’s pet or whomever, to build that steadiness and kindness and presence and amplify it further in your leadership situation? Rustin, how would people learn more about your book and maybe your work at OSU?

Rustin (2): Yeah, so my book, my debut book, unleash, um, unleashing the Bond, harnessing the Power of Human Animal Interactions is available on Amazon, uh, as paperback hardback ebook, and now audiobook. Um, and my second book, which is due out in, um, January, which is called Unlocking the Bond, the Power and Paradox of Human Animal Interactions, uh, will be out, uh, on Amazon as well.[00:48:00]

Um, the work I do here at the College of Veterinary Medicine is, is really, um, these two projects are separate. Um, but, um, clearly the work I do in, in veterinary medicine. And in academic leadership and other things, uh, I do believe I have grown as a leader because of my, the animals in my life and particularly, uh, you know, my three dogs, which, um, as you know, Maureen, I got in the fall of 24 or 14, which was about a year before I became the dean.

And I’ve been through some challenging times as Dean, uh, including we had a, a, a student die by suicide in my right after I became Dean. And, and, you know, through other personal things and professional, those dogs have been a rock for me at home. Um, and so it, it also made me reprioritize my life [00:49:00] so that, you know, I can’t stay at work till 11 o’clock at night.

I have to go home, I have to feed the dogs, I have to take them out, which is a healthy habit to develop. So, um, those, those are, uh, how you can access the book or books. Uh, a little bit about me. I also have a website, uh, for my books and other things. It’s just rust and more. dvm.com.

Maureen: And more is spelled M-O-O-R-E.

Rustin (2): Yeah. Rustin, R-U-S-T-I-N. Moore, M-O-O-R-E-D-V-M, doctor of veterinary medicine.com.

Maureen: Thank you. It, it is always a pleasure to catch up with you and share our conversation with listeners and to our listeners, thank you for coming along for the journey with Rustin and I. Please like the podcast, share it with others, [00:50:00] importantly, consider your bond with the pets in your world, and how do those amplify your ability to lead more effectively?

I

Rustin (2): Thank you so much, Maureen, for having me and uh, always great to see you.

Maureen: thank you. Likewise.