Innovating Leadership:
Co-Creating Our Future

Resources:

Learn more about Christopher on our website at https://bit.ly/CWatILI.

Our host Maureen Metcalf posts a newsletter every week on LinkedIn. You can subscribe here.

Maureen’s latest book is Innovative Leadership & Followership in the Age of AI. You’ll find details about it at https://bit.ly/LeaderInAI, or check out the Kindle version at https://amzn.to/44buVz8.

Other episodes you’ll enjoy:

– The End of Control: Leadership Trends for 2026

– Developing Future-Fit Employees – Christopher is joined by Faris Alami

Guest(s):

Guest(s) Bio:

Dr. Christopher Washington is a strategic leader, systems thinker, and seasoned academic executive with over three decades of experience strengthening nonprofit and educational organizations. He served as Provost and Executive Vice President for Academic Affairs at Franklin University and is a long-standing contributor to the Forbes Nonprofit Council. He previously served as CEO of Urbana University and has held leadership roles on numerous national and international nonprofit boards.

Now, as an IES Principal, Christopher focuses on:

• Developing intrapreneurs who strengthen organizations through creativity, adaptability, and proactive innovation and designing workplace cultures that support experimentation, learning, and resilience
• Guiding executives in building antifragile systems capable of leveraging stress and volatility as sources of growth
• Supporting leaders in responsibly adopting generative and agentic AI
• Advising nonprofits and educational institutions on leadership development, culture redesign, and system transformation.

As a Fellow of the Innovative Leadership Institute for six years, he will continue to partner with ILI founder Maureen Metcalf to explore emerging trends and co-create influential thought leadership and foundation programs, including their annual podcast interviews on leadership disruptions and opportunities.

Transcript
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Maureen: [00:00:00] Welcome to Innovating Leadership Co-Creating our Future. I’m your host, Maureen Metcalf, and this podcast is where we explore how leaders can navigate complexity, elevate performance, and shape the future together. Today I am delighted to be joined by Christopher Washington. Christopher is now a senior fellow with the Innovative Leadership Institute and Provost Emeritus at Franklin University.

In this conversation, we’re gonna explore how leadership is evolving, what it truly takes to build resilient learning organizations, and how leaders can align their purpose, strategy, and people to create sustainable impact.

Christopher, welcome. Welcome to the team. Welcome to the conversation.

Christopher: It’s great to be a part of the team because I get the opportunity to interact with some incredibly talented thinkers and doers.

Maureen: Many leaders focus on strategy, structure and process. That’s kind of what we’re taught. You argue that [00:01:00] stories often determine whether change actually happens.

Christopher: Maureen, I’ve seen so many times in redesign efforts where people have strong market data, they have strong competitive analysis, they have validation from the leaders in the organization.

And they develop strategy from that. Well, a strategy tells people what to do, but the stories they tell people why it’s safe and meaningful to do it. Those stories are happening in organizations, whether we’re framing them or not. The stories are happening and I think most change efforts fail not because the strategy is wrong, but because the story people are living inside still rewards the old behavior because the story that they’re telling sometimes, is a narrative that prevents change from happening or being adopted.

Maureen: We do occasionally tell stabilizing stories, not transformational stories.

Christopher: Most of us tell stabilizing stories. I mean, this goes back [00:02:00] for me to the work of Chris Argyris who really talks about this idea that very intelligent people use their intelligence to sort of defend the status quo. We defend our identity, we tell stories that sound really cool, like, and

important. Like we’re preserving quality, we’re, we’re managing risk. But essentially fear can be in, in behind these narratives.

Fear of what’s changing. And when we don’t tell that narrative about how you’re connected to what needs to happen, then we appeal to the intelligence of people through the brain, but not to the nervous system. You know, that part of us that reacts to what does this mean for me?

And how does, so we should expect that there are gonna be these defensive or maintaining stories in organizations. And it’s an intelligent reaction to what’s happening in the world around people.

Maureen: At this point in time, in history, over business lifecycles and, and [00:03:00] the unfolding of our global structure, we require faster paced, more adaptability, and we need to do it in a way that is safe, creating safety for people to innovate.

Christopher: Are you familiar with Misero’s work on transformative learning? This Misero says that transformative learning starts with a disorienting dilemma. In our world right now, we are facing so many of these disorienting dilemmas.

We can talk about ai, we can talk about robotics, but we can also talk about like policy changes and what’s happening in law that affects how organizations operate and economic situations that we’re in. And our monetary system being somewhat challenged today by others who are sort of disinvesting in the US dollar.

There’s so much going on that are disorienting dilemmas, and those dilemmas move faster than our identity [00:04:00] change and our ability to keep up. That creates anxiety for people. I’m not a psychologist. I’m more of a performance engineer. I’m a learning ecosystem designer, but I can tell you that when you see people with anxiety, they’re less likely to wanna learn and adapt.

They’re really more interested in defending their own assumptions, which is an intellectual activity, but the world is changing so fast we have to have stories that help people keep pace with the narrative of what’s changing in our world and their part to play in it in a way that minimizes some of the anxiety and fear that they are encountering today, which is reasonably expected.

Maureen: So you’ve led change across higher ed nonprofits and in your consulting time also for profits. When did you realize that narrative, not just strategy, is foundational to driving organizational transformation?

Christopher: When I started to realize that the brightest [00:05:00] people that I’ve worked with that I have incredible respect for, were using their intelligence to defend identity during periods of change of the organization protecting, like I mentioned earlier, maybe quality in our case, maybe academic quality or quality of our current process as a nonprofit or our current processes and practices and business environments, that intelligence was used to defend those things and that there were stories behind it.

When you talk to people, you start to hear people say things like ” This is the way we’ve always done it, or this is the way it needs to be done if we’re gonna assure quality,” you start to uncover if you’re listening, uh, these narratives. And I started to believe that the only way to overcome those narratives that interact with everything else, the narratives interact with the strategy, they interact with the processes we have in place.

Systems thinkers think about the organization as a system. They think about the work [00:06:00] processes, they think about human performance systems, how people are incentivizes and the rules that are given the goals that are set, how they perform against them. This sort of systems thinking benefits our organization and our ability to make change.

But we neglect the story part of it, which is interacting it with all of it. It’s a codependent factor that enables people to move to change. So these intelligent people, they understand the system and they say, “Yeah, yeah, I agree with this.” But then their behavior doesn’t change. Then we got a problem, and that’s what I started to witness across a lot of different organizations.

Maureen: I’m gonna go a different direction.

Christopher: Okay.

Maureen: If we think back to Biblical times, the foundational documents used stories to set the behavioral norms… Adam and Eve and the Apple, and being ejected from Eden. That was a story.

Christopher: Well, Maureen, I, I suspect that [00:07:00] in traditions all around the world, narrative structures exist. You know, we were likely as a species, as a race, telling stories around campfires 10,000 plus years ago. And that was the

way we conveyed wisdom. That was the way we structured what’s acceptable and what’s not acceptable behavior. I’m sure people who deviated from that had to move on from the tribe and expand their geography to some other region.

And that’s probably how humanity continued to sort of move out, away from where our center of origin existed. I suspect it played a really important part of of who was in the ingroup and who had to move on. And in organizations today when people have built stories that were based on very logical reasons at the time, it’s hard to be against those stories, you can be perceived as an outsider, even in contemporary organizations when you are saying we [00:08:00] need to do something different. And it threatens identity and sense of belonging.

Maureen: So you talk about then systems being perfectly designed to get the results they get.

And my assumption is it is not only the strategy and the infrastructure, it’s the system including the stories.

Christopher: When we talk about systems thinking, we typically talk about the architecture of the organization, the organization design.

The structures, the policies, procedures, the incentives that reinforce how things work. But we don’t think about the narratives and how all of these factors together, including the narratives, reinforce each other. In my article, I talk about a Microsoft example and I talk about a Apple example of how these leaders used powerful metaphors and story to really shift the orientation of the entire workforce toward a different identity. I think it was Microsoft moving from a sort of [00:09:00] know it all organization to a learn it all organization. Or you could talk about JP Morgan Chase’s CEO, Jamie Diamond, really talking about the fortress balance sheet as a metaphor for describing how we consider risk and the practices that are acceptable.

And if we’re a learn it all organization, does that enable us to collaborate more and to be open-minded to things that are changing in our world and enable our products to adapt to them. These ideas had to overcome whatever the prevailing stories and metaphors were. You know, I, I often think about organizations that describe themselves as, you know, we’re safe and we gotta run it through this process. And we’ve always done it that way. That’s a sort of a an indication that this organization has a metaphor operating and maybe it’s perpetually cocooning. We’re in a safe zone, we wanna stay protected and safe, and that’s it.

And then there are some organizations that think that cocooning may be part of the process of [00:10:00] metamorphosis. In our safety zone, we’re gonna safely experiment, but our intention is not to stay here. It’s to be better versions of ourselves in a way that adapts to the world that’s changing around us.

Maureen: And I appreciate that there’s a balance, right? Because for larger companies, I’ll say like if it’s three guys in a garage, you may be able to move fast and break stuff, but when you’ve got investors, when you’ve got a larger number of employees, you have to balance the “too much risk means we’re out of business, not enough risk probably means we’re out of business.” So how do we tell stories about what responsible innovation looks like when we may be innovating here and running the business here, and they will interweave. How do we think about run the business and innovate the [00:11:00] business and stay in business?

Christopher: This Greek God that has a face in the front and in the back, Janus: we have to be sort of Janus- like in our leadership. We have to look back to the past and honor the things that we do and do well and look to the fore with sort of promise and really encourage and open the capacities of people to help us get there.

No one can do it alone. That’s sort of what pointed me to transition narratives. Transition narrative really seeks to hold that balance of the past and understanding what happened before and, and what’s good about it. ’cause usually when things change, Maureen, not everything is changing.

Some things are staying the same. And some things you have to let go of and replace and some things you have to bring on. That’s new and new ways of doing things in this ai. I’m certain that there’s a lot of things that are staying the same as we adopt AI in the workplace. You know, I’m still in the same relationships.

I’m likely probably in the [00:12:00] same space. I probably have the same role, but these things are transforming and I have to honor the past. But also point to where we’re headed in a way that helps to address that nervous system. What part do you have to play in this?

What’s a picture of the outcome with you in it? These are really important parts of a transition narrative. I love William Bridges’ transition theory. William talks about this idea of the neutral zone where the old is gone and the new is not quite comfortable yet, but in order to get to a new beginning.

You need to have clarity around your purpose and you need to have clarity around the picture of the outcome and the part for people to play and enable them to work together, come up with a plan of action that seems reasonable and doesn’t overtax but it has some sort of it instrumentality to achieve.

The picture of the outcome and the purpose, that those are things that are really important when you think about transition narratives.

Maureen: Bridges talks about unfreezing, neutral zone, refreezing, and I’ve heard [00:13:00] people talk about that a lot. The thought that they unfreeze, they sit in the same ice cube tray, they refreeze like they were, they call it transformation, but they haven’t transformed.

They just unfroze. Change some processes, refroze in the same spot.

Christopher: There’s so much to unpack there. The unfreezing changing refreezing was Kurt Lewin.

Maureen: Oh, okay.

Christopher: And I remember that. I was just like, what? Because I do think maybe William Bridges work was based in part on, uh, Lewin’s Field theory. And I would agree with you that there is a tendency to engage in changes that refreeze what actually was, but just in a different way. And I had this experience when I was doing major consulting work internal to a large state university in the beginning parts of the 1990s where they were adopting their administrative resource systems across the entire university, multiple colleges and [00:14:00] departments and every college and department wanted the system to be adopted to the way they did it uniquely before, rather than coming up with a system that would benefit the entire institution, and that there’s always sort of this pull toward doing things the way they are to protect the roles, responsibilities, identity of people in the system, rather than evolving it so that there’s a collective benefit. That is true, that happens so much, and boy can that be expensive. That can be expensive.

I saw this project go from a $50 million to over a hundred million dollars change management project because of the way people were wanting to adopt new ways to their old practices, and that’s what Chris Argyris just talks about in terms of single loop learning. He says, “You know, if you’re just operating under the current assumptions of how things work in [00:15:00] this system today, you can certainly improve things there.”

That’s not the point of transformation. Transformation is double loop learning, which is: let’s also challenge our assumptions. Are these the right assumptions to be making to begin with? And what’s our desired state and how might we change our assumptions as well as our practices to get there?

Maureen: Now, is there also a triple loop learning?

Christopher: You know, I think I’d gotta dive a little deeper into the literature on that one. I bet Maureen, with, uh, with you in the mix, we could come up with a, if there isn’t already, we could come up with a triple loop learning approach for sure.

Maureen: Okay. So actually Bill Torbert builds on Chris Argyris’ work.

He does have a triple loop. Torbert looks at self conversation, so bringing in our story and then organization that the first loop is looking at outcomes mainly, and then behavior. Torbert calls [00:16:00] the second loop looking at our thoughts and feelings, and I like adding assumptions. And then the third loop is for self intention, for story is how do I frame it?

And for organization, it’s vision, so vision, strategy, performance and assessment. So really bringing in that highest level of who am I in this transformation. So it’s not just the stuff happening out there, it’s thoughts, feelings, and assumptions.

Christopher: And Maureen, I think that’s really powerful. I’ve talked about this in some of my recent writings, but I’ve not really described it as triple loop feedback. I’m delighted that you shared that with me because what I have talked about is this idea that there are identities and people seek to protect them and there are personas that people live out in organizations and you get to see them when there [00:17:00] is this disorienting dilemma. The personas come out and people, they don’t necessarily disagree with the change so much as they disagree with being impacted in it by the change in a certain way, and their persona and their identity being affected by it.

And so I often think that culture and organization, if you sort of think about these identities and personas it’s really not about what leaders say in relationship to who you are today. It’s built on what happens after you react to the change and seeing what happened to the last person who reacted to it, you know, it’s sort of a consequential system around identity. That’s a big deal.

Maureen: With the stories we’re reading about things like 50% of entry level jobs will go away based on ai. So my identity as a person in a professional field, an accountant, a [00:18:00] financial advisor, a lawyer, a leader of, of various sorts, I’ve never been at risk of having my job be automated away with a robot.

Now with ai, my fundamental identity as a professional could vaporize if I’m not staying ahead of it. And so I think your identity piece, people are gonna have serious autoimmune responses to some of this new technology because it is literally core survival, Maslow, am I safe in the world? Am I a provider for my family? Do I get to keep my house and feed my kids?

Christopher: Yeah. These are very legitimate concerns and very rational ones for people to think in this way. And then you have at the leadership level existential questions being raised by leaders about this technology and whether we choose to use it or not. If we don’t use it, will we fall behind as an [00:19:00] organization and will it eliminate all of our jobs and our institution as as a whole because we’re less competitive with organizations who are adopting it. These are really important questions to answer and if we are working to adopt it, do I use my intelligence to resist this idea of adopting strategies within my area or do I learn how to use it and figure out how I might play a part in this future. It certainly helps when leaders are using transition narratives to describe where we’re headed and the plan of action and if there is a part for people to play in that, to communicate that, because that does help, I think, address some of the anxieties much more effectively than just presenting the facts in a PowerPoint presentation on what’s changing.

Maureen: You talk about the transition narrative having four parts, the four Ps. Can you walk our listeners through what that [00:20:00] means so that they can begin to practice creating them?

Every organization I’m working with is navigating at some level, how do we stay relevant, and the existential also, how do we keep our organizations safe?

Christopher: I drew heavily on the work of the transition theorist who really talked about this idea of having a clear, uh, purpose.

So he describes it as William Bridges describes the four Ps. A purpose of what? What is the purpose of what we’re trying to do here? How does it fit with our mission? Um. How, how’s it gonna make us more sustainable? There’s a purpose of the change in being able to clearly articulate that. You can find some of that in strategic plans for sure.

But then there’s the picture of the outcome, and this gets into more narrative structure and like, what does this look like for us if we successfully implement this? Because if I, if I can describe that picture of the outcome [00:21:00] to people. They can see this is going in a direction that’s going to be beneficial to us.

It includes aspects of what is today and there’s some things that are changing and there are some things certainly we have to let go of if we’re going to achieve this sort of picture of the outcome that you see. So purpose, picture of the outcome. What is the plan of action?

You know, how are we gonna get there? And is, is there opportunity contribute to this plan of action and to leverage the creativity of our people who are closest to the work and helping us figure out. The best ways to get there. I love creating a lot of committees and task forces that get together and deal with the practical realities of how we need to continue to do the work we’re doing while we’re also adapting ourselves to this new purpose and the most effective way to transition from how we’re doing things today to how we should be doing things tomorrow.

That’s really a, a really important part of this plan of action. And then to address that sort of [00:22:00] psychology piece. You know, what’s, what’s the part for me to play, how do I fit into all of this? Do you see me fitting into this as sort of an authority figure that I value a credible person, you know, how do I fit into this new future?

What do you expect of me? How can I contribute? And I think if you can describe those four things, your four Ps that really help with the transition, the psychological adjustment to the change. Change is events and happenings. The transition is how people psychologically adjust to them. I think these four conditions, being able to articulate them will help with that.

If I had a fifth P, I often think about this. I might pull out the idea of having a sort of platform for experimentation, a safe zone for people to try things out and to be okay to have, not have negative consequences if it doesn’t just go perfectly. Because that is what creates culture.

You have the safe [00:23:00] experience. And if you disagree with assumptions, it’s okay. If we’re trying to achieve this purpose, but that safe zone, this platform for experimentation and engagement, I think is really important.

Maureen: That’s a really important point. Last night I was thinking about for a client, “well, I’ll just come up with their story.”

It was not a five minute exercise; I gave up. There is work in it, there is testing it, a story that may seem brilliant to me, I may tell it to one of my clients and they may look at me like I’m the one with two heads.

Christopher: What I would advise people when thinking about how to start this is to begin by listening to the current stories that are, that are in place.

Map the stories that are already circulating, ’cause they are, and then you can start by testing out some of the new language to see how some of that fits with people. Keeping in mind that you have this notion of a purpose, a plan picture of the outcome and a part for people to play as part of this. And the idea that you wanna create a [00:24:00] safe space for people to experiment.

So if you listen to the existing stories, it’s sort of a form of sensemaking in public. You know, you make sense of it, but then you, you can determine what kind of narrative needs to supersede that, you know, what’s a higher order value here or a more mission aligned, a more purposeful idea that needs to be communicated.

You can help surface that once you truly understand the current narratives that are in place.

Maureen: And I assume that may vary by either level in the organization or functional group. Finance may have a different story than operations or manufacturing has.

Christopher: I would say yes. And if you skip the part about honoring the past, people will hear loss when, you know, when change occurs, most people hear loss first.

If you skip the future, giving people the sense of clear purpose in your narrative, people hear drift, you know, like we’re [00:25:00] just doing another thing and you’re gonna do, you know, we’re just adding to my plate and we did something like this before and it didn’t work.

And, you know, just drift. There’s really power and anchoring it and it probably needs to start at the top. And then maybe the stories and narratives change based on the current stories and narratives in different units and departments, there might be variations of the story. But I do think you need to have a overarching arching, uh, view, a narrative and story.

Maureen: I have a client who’s just coming up on celebrating their hundred year anniversary. They’ve made a lot of changes to stay current, relevant over the last few years. Uh, and there is this sense of balancing legacy of a, a multi-generational business with we are also a business that’s gonna thrive over the next a hundred years, not [00:26:00] by over-indexing on our legacy, but by balancing we’re building on the past and the past has allowed us to be strong enough to build new.

Christopher: It just says to me that every part of this transition narrative is important. You know, the honoring the past part is really important. If you don’t have a clear sense of purpose, people are gonna always ask, why are we doing this? If you don’t talk about the picture of the outcome, people really don’t know what success looks like at the end.

Where are we headed and what does that look like? That’s a big void if you don’t know what success looks like. If you don’t have a plan, people are gonna wonder, how are we gonna get there? You know, what are we, and what behavior is valued as we’re working toward this new future.

And if you don’t tell me where I fit in, my nervous system is just gonna go berserk and I’m gonna go home every day wondering about this issue and it’s gonna create tremendous amount of [00:27:00] anxiety.

So I do think there’s, uh, importance in thinking about transition narratives holistically using this sort of idea of Four Ps.

Maureen: I love how comprehensive it is. That purpose is, yes, we wanna stay in business, but we’re in business to serve somebody and make the world better in some way, and anchoring that really solidly when people are feeling the volume of change and people are just feeling adrift.

But the beginning is we are doing something worthy of my personal life’s energy,

Christopher: something that’s bigger than me.

Maureen: Mm-hmm.

Christopher: Right? I mean, that’s why I love your leadership development programming.

I mean, you really get into this idea of maturity, leadership maturity, and I’m just, when I was exposed to that idea, it really blew me away in many ways because it helps. Part [00:28:00] of what you’re doing is helping people connect to bigger purposes, things that are bigger than themselves.

Maureen: Thank you.

Christopher: That’s sort of a starting place for all this really is really thinking about, what am I here for?

What am I doing? What’s my organization about? And am I aligned with who I am with, with this organization and what we’re trying to do. Boy, that creates the credible sort of groundwork for the communication you have with other people because they can believe in what you’re saying and what you’re about.

And whether they’re aligned with that or not, that’s a great starting place for all this work. I’ve been writing a lot about creating intrapreneurial cultures and recognizing that we, you know, as leaders, if you have a clear purpose, if you want to most effectively achieve it, you can’t do it alone.

You’ve gotta do it through other people, and you’ve gotta create an environment for people to bring out the best of who they are to make that happen. I think a lot of organizations say, I just need more creative people. No, you don’t. Sometimes you got them already [00:29:00] with you. You just need to create the conditions that unleash their ability to work effectively and leverage their capacities.

So many people have heard over and over again, these culture shaping statements that, you know, we don’t do it that way or we can’t do that right now. You know, let’s look at doing that maybe later. But you keep getting put off. Put off and it sorts erode. People’s confidence in their ability to get things done in an organization.

And I think we’ve gotta focus more on the kind of language that creates, curiosity that empowers people, that makes it safe for them to work. And I think the magic happens when you do that.

Maureen: Let me circle back then, you said at the beginning we get what the systems are designed to give us.

We created those systems that are giving us people who may be less creative. You’ve now identified a massive lever to shift [00:30:00] creating the conditions so we can get something different as we also change our systems.

Christopher: We can’t neglect the relationship in the system of the narrative. So we have the structures and the processes and incentives, all that, but there’s a narrative literacy that’s required, one that enables people to understand what’s going on today, the hidden assumptions that are there, and an ability to craft meaning when we’re dealing with all these uncertainties, these disorienting dilemmas, how do I help people rewrite?

Their identities without feeling, uh, they’re losing themselves or that they’re losing out. And that’s the power. I think that that’s the lever we need to shift today uh, if we’re gonna be effective

Maureen: authentically,

Christopher: well authentically comes from, you know, again, your leadership development pieces.

Who are you? What is your purpose? What are you trying to do [00:31:00] here? I love learning ecosystem design. I love leadership development. It shows up in everything I do, whether I’m teaching a class to MBA students, whether I’m working with ILI or whether I, you know, I’ve led a university.

These themes are there even working trans nationally. I’m concerned about how leaders function and the influence they have on people and the kind of environments and climates they create where learning can be transferred to effectiveness or productivity or profitability or whatever the outcomes are.

These are the things that are really important to me and you know, you help leaders get in touch with. Who they are and what their, what their purposes are. And I think that comes off as authentic when you’re, sort of close to understanding that for yourself and you’re doing it for an organization.

People know when you’re authentic or not.

Maureen: Yeah, they do. Yeah, they do. If there was one thing our listeners could take away from this conversation and do this afternoon, [00:32:00] what would that be?

Christopher: That’s a great question. I think I would encourage people to listen for one sentence if they’re introducing organizational change, listen to one sentence, people repeat about how things work here and I would tell them that if you hear that sentence repeatedly in your organization that it’s probably doing more work in shaping the behavior and the culture than your strategy deck. So listen for and see what you hear and start to think about are there ideas that may be superseded in your view, given your purpose and the picture of the outcome that you have in mind.

Maureen: Christopher, it is always such a delight to get to hang out with you and share the conversations with other people. I have the honor of talking to you and hearing your insights based on the work you’ve done in institutional transformation and your futurist work, and there’s just a whole bunch we haven’t even [00:33:00] talked about today.

So thank you.

Christopher: Well, we’re just scratching the surface, Maureen, and you know, I’m walking away having learned a powerful lesson from you too. I’m gonna look more deeply into triple loop learning. That’s one of my, uh, homework tasks.

Maureen: Thank you. And to our listeners, thank you for joining this episode of Innovating Leadership Co-creating our future.

If you found today’s conversation valuable, I encourage you to reflect on one idea that you can apply immediately. Christopher gave that example of listening to the stories. So you can learn more about Christopher’s work at our website, innovative leadership institute.com.

You can follow him on the show notes and we’ll have more information on how to contact him there.

Christopher: Thank you, Maureen.