Innovating Leadership:
Co-Creating Our Future

Maureen: [00:00:00] This segment. Our guest is Susan Matson. We’re at the International Leadership Association Conference Live. Susan is Orin r Woodbury, professor of Leadership and Ethics, the Woodbury School of Business, Utah Valley University. So welcome. Thank you. And Susan, can you give us a little bit of your background?

Susan: Well, I, uh, have been a researcher for many years, but about 12 years ago, I really moved my research into the area of women and leadership. I started, uh, with some major projects, um, that I still, I still love this research line of understanding, um, and interviewing high profile women leaders. My first two books for one of them, I interviewed university presidents who were women.

Maureen: Okay.

Susan: And then the second one I interviewed 10 of the 20. Uh, female governors that were alive and my specific niche early on, and I’ve gone. You know, gone broader was really understanding the lifetime [00:01:00] development of leadership. So I really dug down into their upbringings, their own, their parents, uh, sports.

Um, how did they develop their voices and their confidence and, and, um, just become leaders. So I’m, I’m really proud, especially the governor’s book because mm-hmm. Because at the time there were only 20 women who were alive that had ever been governor in the United States, and I was able to spend time with 10 of them.

So that’s how I really started in the area. And then in terms of the International Leadership Association. Mm-hmm. I joined that in 2009 and then founded the Women in Leadership Affinity Group, which has mm-hmm. Well over a thousand members now, and really started moving things forward, like the book series that we’ll be chatting about.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, some conferences and those things. I’m a bit of a change agent. I like to. Uh, I feel it’s very important in our society today to do more research and develop more theory mm-hmm. Around women in leadership, [00:02:00] around things to help us understand how do we raise more girls to be leaders? How do we help women who are leaders now are women now to become leaders.

Mm-hmm. How do we raise confidence? How do we develop mm-hmm. You know, structures. So all of that. I love all this. Stuff.

Maureen: And one of my questions that that I think is the nice companion to that is as you’re developing them to fill the pipeline, I’m looking at often my male clients and what’s the value proposition to them to bring these women that you’re developing into their businesses?

’cause we lead differently.

Susan: Absolutely. Well, actually a little, we do lead differently in some ways, but I have to always be careful because when you look at the literature around women mm-hmm. Women and men and the styles of leadership, actually we do a lot more similar. Okay. Similar things. Mm-hmm. But we do have some differences.

Uh, definitely. But mm-hmm. We’re not totally different is what I’m saying. But in terms of the business case or the value proposition mm-hmm. Actually research has been coming off the [00:03:00] last 10 years, E even more, but really strong, I would say in the last five or 10 years on why do we need more women leaders?

Right? And, and actually there’s so many, there’s just hundreds and hundreds, if not thousands of studies that have been looking at a very various components. Some of these reasons just to be open are, are from the corporate setting and the non-profit and some political research and different things.

Mm-hmm. But the first one really comes more out of the corporate setting, and that is it improves financial performance. Now, not every study says that, but enough studies do say that, that they have found in organizations that oftentimes when there’s women specifically on boards mm-hmm. Are in top leadership teams.

That there are financial improvements and things like, uh, the company takes less risk and, and doesn’t lose as much money as certain kinds of things. Mm-hmm. I wrote a brief a year or two ago called Why do We Need More Women Leaders? Okay. Um, and actually as the business [00:04:00] case mm-hmm. I took research, like I said, from hundreds of studies.

Mm-hmm. And, uh, have them categorized into five main areas. Like I said, one of them is financial improvements. Mm-hmm. And so that’s really important, uh, from the research element in terms of corporations, that, that there’s much evidence, not every study, but much evidence mm-hmm. That the financial.

Performance of the company goes up when there’s women serving on boards or serving in leadership positions, or both. So another thing that many studies have pointed out is that companies improve when there’s women on those boards. And this could be non-profit as well as political. Mm-hmm. Setting. Mm-hmm.

They tend to have more social responsibility, uh, more. Philanthropy in the organization. Mm-hmm. Another one is, is really the organizational climate improves. There’s more employees in general in the company that are engaged. There’s less turnover. Some of the studies have said that looking at the diversity of talent is important.

I love [00:05:00] this one because, you know, women really ask different questions.

Maureen: Um, so let’s go back to the governor study. Okay. And tie that to the benefits. How do we grow up differently or what is it I. Being female. I have different reproductive organs. Yes. But how does that make me different as a leader? And that’s a question I have to answer.

What is it about the physiological structure that makes you different, and why does that perspective need to be represented?

Susan: Oh, just your upbringing is socialization is. So different. Okay. Between boys and girls, that starts so early. There’s so much research even in elementary school children. For one quick example that you’ll find interesting mm-hmm.

Is in the United States, the K through 12, well, particularly elementary school boys are criticized eight times more than girls. Really? And you think, oh, those poor boys. But generally speaking, they grow learning then to take it. Yeah. Yeah. It, what happens is [00:06:00] girls are socialized more that they should be quiet.

Mm-hmm. And they get their praise from being quiet, keeping their mouth shut. Mm-hmm. Raising their hand, waiting their turn. And boys are like criticized and that’s, you know, I mean, it’s an interesting dynamic. But then they go outside and they, there’s blood sometimes at recess and they’re friends five minutes later.

Mm-hmm. Now, fast forward 20 years, 25 years.

Maureen: And this is compounded basically, right? Yes.

Susan: Basically. And then 25 years. What are men better in the workplace? Than, than women. And that’s taking criticism, getting over things, you know, letting things kind of fall off their shoulders. And women have been socialized from an early age to be quiet, raise their hand, be obedient.

Mm-hmm. And so they’re. Waiting for their turn, waiting for that extra praise. Um, another quick thing is that I can get going on this. This is such fun stuff. Is that even in the, in even new STEM research in the United States? Mm-hmm. [00:07:00] The messaging that parents and other influencers give on girls and boys from the young age is very different.

Two points on this. One is that boys typically are. Given encouragement in words from parents and everybody. Mm-hmm. We don’t, we’re doing this that they can become so they can if you worked hard mm-hmm. You can become, and girls from a very young age are, you are beautiful, you are smart. So when a girl then gets an F on a math test, it’s me.

So you are this way. Does it give the impression you can become versus you can do? No, it’s, it’s, you exist, you are versus you can become. And so the messages, a number of studies, well, many studies have pointed out mm-hmm. That we just talk about that and, and it starts from the physical, like, you little, little girl has a beautiful term.

You are [00:08:00] beautiful. You are. And so something happens. You’re all of a sudden don’t feel like you’re beautiful. So who are you? Your identity. There’s subtle things like that all over the, the, you know, just the Christmas presents. Yeah. We give different Christmas presents to girls and boys and different colors.

So the socialization, so back to the governors. Uh, question. You know, it’s interesting, I found so many, uh, results, but one of them was how important the dinner table conversation was in helping them develop their voices and how their fathers, specifically mothers as well, how their fathers really, they had good debates in a good way at the table, and they’re, they didn’t get hushed.

Like sometimes you hush girls, right? But you, they would talk about, you know, a new sidewalk issue coming into the community and the impact of those things. And, and so they really had ways, these women who became leaders to develop their voices from a young age. And that [00:09:00] continued,

Maureen: so, so my dad was in the military

Susan: uhhuh,

Maureen: um, and I was kind of a math kid, nerdy kid, and we debated.

Susan: Yeah, absolutely.

Maureen: And, and so I was taught early on, but a lot of people aren’t. Right. Well, and I wondered why. I mean, I had all of my own issues, so not that there weren’t a ton of them, but there were parts that, that I was able to have a voice. Yeah. In some way. And again, there were other things, but that probably carried through, well,

Susan: even, even more formally.

The research that I did says, and I, I’ve been a coach for years. Mm-hmm. I was raised with six brothers. I, okay, I’m an athlete, but there’s such an advantage. For girls and women playing sports, what you developed. But I also found that speech and debate back to what you said in a more formal way, actually was very important for women to compete, uh, learn how to lose gracefully, learn how to [00:10:00]work with the team, do all kinds of things.

And fortunately there’s more girls and young women playing sports, but they still drop out more than boys are men. And there’s just some value and all of those things when we’re raising girls and when I. Say raising girls. I’m not just talking about parents, but grandparents and educators and neighbors.

Coaches and teachers and church, you know, uh, colleagues.

Maureen: Actually, as you say, that’s, so I played soccer for a year and we were brutal. There were more injuries on the girls soccer team than there were boys. Football you can

Susan: get into, I was a basketball players,

Maureen: so I was you, but that, so I’ve wondered sometimes why.

And then I went to work in companies that were predominantly men. Clients that were predominantly men, so utilities industry. One of my clients was a steel manufacturer. So it was often, but you were probably some,

Susan: yeah. You were probably somewhat more comfortable in some ways because of those sports experiences and because of like speech and debate.

Does that. To you as well because you, you were doing more physical [00:11:00] things with your mind and being competitive.

Maureen: Right. Well, and that’s what I wondered what made me different, because I don’t have some of these concerns. But also on vacation, I climbed Kilimanjaro one year. Yeah. And that’s not a, that’s good.

I mean, this was, I pushed every, every physical limit I had and, and beyond. And I knew I needed to do that because I didn’t feel like a strong, physically strong person. Yeah. And so I knew that was a, um, an area that held me back. So I kind of pushed it.

Susan: And, you know, at today’s society, sometimes we protect those, the girls, the boys go out and play and the girls do things.

Mm-hmm. But, um, I’ll tell you for, for mental, physical, emotional wellbeing and growth mm-hmm. We have to. Have our, our girls learn how to take risks. Mm-hmm. Women are not as good as men taking risks. Some of that comes from genetics and hormones and neurotransmitters. Mm-hmm. Some different things. Mm-hmm.[00:12:00]

But we can develop those skills. So doing some of those, like girls camp, let ’em camp intense. Oh goodness. Yeah. Don’t put ’em in, don’t, they don’t wanna break their nails. Don’t put ’em in resort. I call it camp or resort camp or something. Um. But backpacking, those things are so good for young women. Mm-hmm.

For so many reasons. And that relate all of them. Mm-hmm. Relate directly or indirectly to women’s confidence, women’s voice, and leadership.

Maureen: So even things like scouts. The first time I went camping with scouts, yeah. Now our tent flooded and we got taken home. So, but even that, like, I wonder if it was boys, if they just make them sit there wet.

But the girls are, they called our parents and we were all. Card at home.

Susan: I don’t know. But sometimes we, we do treat girls and boys differently and, and some would argue we need to do that. And there are definitely things we do, but I think as we raise our children or help [00:13:00] raise, you know mm-hmm. Influence the community, you know, um, well and teach, take community to raise a child that, that we need to be more thoughtful on.

Is this just a habit? Because we’re used to, um. Girls doing this and boys doing this, um, or, you know, think more thoughtfully about how to develop these competencies in young women. How do we help these girls find a voice, get developmental opportunities so they can practice leadership, give them confidence, help them, you know, find opportunities so that they can, even if they struggle.

And helicopter parenting is the worst on women. Okay. Um, on girls. Mm-hmm. Because we wanna take the pain from them. Mm. But in my books and in my work, the women over and over again said to me, it’s, it was in the challenges and struggles and failures they learned. Mm-hmm. Much more than in their successes in terms of leadership.

Maureen: So let’s go back to the governors again because I’m curious. [00:14:00] Well, I wanna see what worked with women who’ve been. By all measures successful.

Susan: Well, I, uh, again, I, I looked at their mothers and fathers and their siblings. Having brothers kind of helped. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But also, there were some that had a bunch of sisters and their fathers really gave them opportunities.

They would have a son. The dinner table conversation was important I found in every single woman I interviewed. Not just governors, but I’ve done work in the Middle East and China. Mm-hmm. Different things that they were avid readers and how important reading and getting your children to read because they become learners and they just.

Soak up. They also, one thing that was so prominent is that they were able to learn how to truly reflect at a young age. Okay. Um, so they could look at things and analyze both sides. The whole sports thing is important. Actually, further along, one thing that is [00:15:00] interesting are three or four of the governors, when I studied their motivations to lead, it came from.

You know, they had learned throughout their life to be somewhat leaders, but when they told stories that came from defending or fighting for their own children, that, that they got involved in legislation. One, uh, Barbara Roberts, who was the first female governor of Oregon.

Maureen: Mm-hmm.

Susan: Uh, she pushed through and learned how to lobby through.

Uh, her, her son was autistic. Okay. Before there was any special education legislation. Uh, she had the first that went through and she found her voice through lobbying a bill for her son and for others in special education. And then she found out she was good at the political process and ended up sticking with it.

And so that’s, it’s so interesting to look at women’s lives as they’re growing up. How can we can help girls, but also how can we help? Unleash. [00:16:00] Mm-hmm. The voices of young women and women of any age now to make a difference because people in their forties and fifties like us, I won’t tell you if we’re in their forties or fifties, um, still have time to have a voice and make an impact.

Maureen: So for young girls reading, reflecting the dinner table conversation, sports opportunities to fail. So fast forward now to forties and fifties. Mm-hmm. So assuming I want to move into a leadership role, or I wanna move into a bigger leadership role. Mm-hmm. What would you advise me now as a mid-career person?

Maybe even senior career person?

Susan: I would say really, um, I would advise, find a very good women only. Leadership program that you can do at least once in your career. So why women? Only because there’s certain experience, I wouldn’t say every year and all your leadership would be that. Okay. No, I’m just saying at least one [00:17:00] good women only program and then do other programs as well.

Okay. But women only because you do get a different experience in a women only. Mm-hmm. I, I work on those. Um. I’m doing now, one with 18 people. I’m gonna finish the last two days next week. There are conversations, experiences, ways to do leadership identity work. Mm. That she would just do with women because they’re more vulnerable in those settings.

And they can, and they can go deeper. Okay. And it’s just a conversation, a safe place. And not that I’m saying you shouldn’t do other kind. Mm-hmm. Right. I didn’t hear that. But that’s a great thing. Also really connecting and finding opportunities for mentoring and. Sponsorship. Okay. Um, sponsoring meaning someone that that’ll really help give you opportunities and move.

And then just to more self exploration and, and figure out, and I do a lot of speaking around the issue of learning from everything. I’ll tell you, there are so many things that happen in your life that you probably have not learned leadership lessons from. It’s not the [00:18:00] experience that teaches you, it’s the reflection on the experience that actually helps to teach you, helps you develop leadership.

So going back and really looking at your own, you, you’ll have to read one of my first couple of books because it helps you look through your life and say, what have, what can I learn? What can I help transform me that I’ve already experienced, that I haven’t explored?

Maureen: So I think that’s a great note to shift on.

And, and I wanna reiterate the reflection. Um, you and I shared that commitment to, I don’t cultivate the benefit if I don’t reflect deeply about and then make an action plan. Yeah. So what did I learn? What am I gonna do less of? What am I gonna do more of? And what practices do I put in place, even if they’re simple, little five minutes a day.

Absolutely. Those are the ones I can actually do generally still, it still works. Yeah, I know. I still do it too. I don’t love it. I don’t even like it. A lot of times.

Susan: That’s where my, my people, people have told me, uh, flight attendants. We [00:19:00] had, we’re not used to seeing people write as much as you do. I write on airplanes and actually, great.

That’s a good time to, to do some reflecting

Maureen: because there is something about the, the something that integrates when we write. There still is. So give us the name of a couple of books that you would recommend and a website so people can contact you.

Susan: So I have a few other books besides the ILA series.

Okay. But the ILA series, um, we started a couple years ago, have. Four books published. I was a co, uh, editor on the first string and three, and I would recommend those women in leadership in higher education, uh, women as global leaders and women in leadership around the world. The first book and the second book I was talking about in terms of the lifetime development of these women.

Uh, the first one from 2008 is called I’m Becoming a Woman Leader. Learning from the experiences of university presidents. Okay. And then the second one is developing leadership, learning from the experiences of women [00:20:00] governors. Um, and there’s some other books as well, but, uh, the website that you can find out more information about these books.

But my own as well, is my speaking consulting website, which is madsen global leadership.com.

Maureen: So M-A-D-S-E-N. Yes, global leadership.com com. Okay.

Susan: And then more information on the, the International Leadership Association books can also be found on my website, but also the ILA website,

Maureen: and that’s

Susan: ila-net.org.

Maureen: Okay, and then you would just search Women in Leadership?

Susan: Yeah. Yeah. It says www.ilanet.org, and then you can just drop down to publications, women in Leadership.

Maureen: Great, Susan, such

Susan: a pleasure. Thank you. Thank you so much.