Innovating Leadership:
Co-Creating Our Future

Maureen: [00:00:00] I’m your host, Maureen Metcalf, and I’m delighted to be recording live from the International Leadership Association Conference in Atlanta. I’m joined by Karen Longman. Karen is the director of PhD program in higher education at Azua, pa. Pacific University, Karen, you’ve participated in creating a four book series of what will be an eight book.

You’ve published already four about women in leadership. Give us a little bit about your background and why women in leadership of all of the topics. Mm-hmm. This is

Karen: a

Maureen: huge investment.

Karen: Yeah, it is a huge investment. Well, the first four books deal with four different aspects of this topic of women in leadership, and I think for me personally, and many of the people were at the International Leadership Association Annual Conference.

Uh, held in Atlanta, uh, we’re very concerned that there is a great deal of human capacity in women worldwide that’s not being tapped or freed up or encouraged to be used. So for myself, uh, I’m very much [00:01:00] concerned that I. Girls are growing up and women around the world have a lot to offer to resolve some of the world’s big problems, and I think have very thoughtful ways of going about that kind of problem solving.

But the culture in many parts of the world doesn’t support that women could use their gifts or could advance into leadership to make a difference in terms of the areas they’re passionate about.

Maureen: And

Karen: so

Maureen: the first step. Or one of the many steps for you is participating and, and leading this book series.

Mm-hmm. To what extent are these issues? It, it sounds like they’re global issues.

Karen: Mm-hmm. You know, the second book, the first book in the series is primarily North American, and it’s called Women in Leadership in Higher Education. Mm-hmm. The fact is within North America, which is the focus of that particular book.

The majority of people getting degrees, whether it’s an associate’s degree or a bachelor’s degree. Mm-hmm. Or a master’s degree or a doctorate. The majority are women. Now, I. But in higher education [00:02:00] nationally in the United States at least, we still only have about 26% women presidents, and most of those are in the community college system or are in women’s colleges or smaller, struggling liberal arts institutions.

Uh, but the other three books are really international in scope. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So the second one’s called Women and Global Leaders, and the third one’s called Women in Leadership around the World. And the Forward to one of those books makes the point that a lot of leadership, research and literature has been Western.

But there’s a scholar at Harvard University who spoke this morning and was very emphatic that leadership has always done in a context. Mm-hmm. And always done with what she calls followers. And we must be attentive to the context of the leadership. So to presume that what might advance women into, say corporate leadership or higher education leadership might be completely different in other parts of the world.

Mm-hmm. So there’s a great deal of research being done and that has been done, but taking what has been learned about what contributes to [00:03:00] effective leadership or how diversity at the top of organizations and corporations helps with profitability and retention and. Organizational culture that hasn’t always been translated into practices mm-hmm.

That help organizations and corporations be strategic about how to encourage really bright up and coming. Mm-hmm. Leaders, whether they be male or female, get their feet underneath themselves and be ready to provide leadership and at steadily increasing levels.

Maureen: And I think the statistics are still true, that women tend to attribute faster than men do.

As we go through our careers,

Karen: women tend to,

Maureen: oh, um, hit, hit a glass ceiling or leave for various reasons. Mm-hmm.

Karen: Mm-hmm.

Maureen: And or don’t get promoted to those C level and board

Karen: mm-hmm.

Maureen: Positions in the same percentage as men do. Mm-hmm.

Karen: Yeah. There’s a wide variety of external factors. There are microaggressions, there are implicit biases.

Uh, there’s. Probably 20 to 50 [00:04:00] different reasons why that reality is still the case. Even in a first world country like the United States

Maureen: are there, or something like a top three. Are there some major reasons you can point to mm-hmm. Of those 20?

Karen: Um, I would say the literature now is really interesting in that it’s looking not just at.

The external reasons. For example, um, women tend to have fewer mentors, fewer responses. Women tend to get lower paid positions. Women tend to take on a great deal of work because they sense a responsibility for the organization. Mm-hmm. Whereas men tend to get promoted and let people below them do the busy work.

Um, but the more interesting literature right now is really on the internal dynamics of women often being. Wanting their lives to make a difference and wanting to be invested in something that has a purpose. Mm-hmm. Or a cause that they believe in, but not really necessarily being interested in positional leadership or not being interested in high status leadership.

So the motivators for women tend to be, these are obviously [00:05:00] sweeping judgments, right? Right. There’s a scholar out of Northwestern University in Chicago who’s done what we call a meta-analysis of. A lot of the research, Dr. Alice Ley at Northwestern, and she would say the top of the bell curves for how women lead and how men lead are somewhat different.

There is a difference in the way women view the world and the way men view the world, but what motivates women to get into leadership. It’s different than the, again, big generalizations, but men tend to be more hierarchical and more interested in status. Mm-hmm. And more interested in. Power and more competitive, and women tend not to align their lives around those things.

Mm-hmm. They’re more interested in purpose and the mission of the organization and making the world a better place or creating a fabric in the organization that people love working in. And those things tend not to be what causes people to rise to the very top most positions.

Maureen: Okay. So this is fascinating to me because I’m starting to, um.

Pursue a board [00:06:00] role. Mm-hmm. And, and really trying to understand. There’s a lot of push for women in board positions. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But I really wanted to understand what is the value proposition. Mm-hmm. Truly, uh, quantifiably, why does my gender better qualify me? As a perspective on a board. Mm-hmm.

Because I wanted to be able to answer that question. Mm-hmm. So is that something you can explain, especially to some of my male colleagues who might say,

Karen: why do I care?

Maureen: Mm-hmm.

Karen: Well, I would say it does not better position. Mm-hmm. I would say the research and it’s very wide, well respected research. And the source for boards in particular would be Catalyst out of New York City.

They are nonprofit catalyst.org. Which has done a great deal of work on corporate leadership and on board leadership, and Susan has actually done a summary of some research on several different reasons why diversity in leadership makes a difference. Mm-hmm. [00:07:00] And why diversity on board. Mm-hmm. Leadership makes a difference, part of which is the profitability of companies.

Mm-hmm. Part of which is the organizational culture that people work in. Part of which is the more perspectives you have on a problem, the smarter the decisions are.

Maureen: So Okay. And that was the one that resonated with me, that it isn’t about my gender. Mm-hmm. It’s about the experiences I’ve had differently.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Because I’ve traveled through my life in a different body mm-hmm. And socialized differently. Mm-hmm. So I bring a different view. Mm-hmm.

Karen: Yeah. So same for racial ethnic diversity, uh, gender diversity, age diversity. Mm-hmm. Getting different voices and different life experiences and different priorities and different perspectives around the board table or around the executive leadership table is in many ways very beneficial, uh, for organizations and companies, and that that’s well documented.

If you just go to catalyst.org, they’re documenting all the research that contributes to that kind of summative statement.

Maureen: And that is one of the places [00:08:00] I did go. Mm-hmm. And really did help the beginning of my shaping the conversation. Mm-hmm. And what I’m wanting our listeners to hear, because for many people they, they’re not gonna do the research I did.

Mm-hmm. And so for women who are thinking about this and having to answer the question, and for men who are saying, why, I hear that it’s a good thing to do this. Mm-hmm. But I don’t get why. Mm-hmm. That was why I wanted to ask the question. Mm-hmm. So. So that the conversation might actually change someone’s behavior.

Mm-hmm.

Karen: Yeah, I think it’s important that we look at the research and there is a great deal of research, um, and, and many, many studies are showing that the greater diversity at the top in multiple ways organizations benefit. So what are

Maureen: some other. Causes for women not to progress. Mm-hmm.

Karen: Um, yeah, that’s the internal motivators.

Okay. Or the internal, um, [00:09:00] hindrances. Mm-hmm. I think in general, often women value things, uh, that are not materialistic or not power oriented, or not prestige oriented. So what tends to motivate women or what women tend to value, I think is somewhat different. And again, the top of the two bell curves, there seems to be some difference that men.

Even the way they play sports. Mm-hmm. Boys are more competitive and more individualistic. So as someone has said, boys grow up, you know, dreaming about being the quarterback who single handedly can, can throw the Hail Mary pass and the football team wins. Mm-hmm. But he gets all the adulation. Uh, girls grow up wanting to be cheerleaders, so they’re basically on the sidelines supporting somebody else and looking good.

Maureen: Mm.

Karen: And even if

Maureen: we don’t want those roles, we don’t have much choice.

Karen: Well, I think culture definitely shapes what we become. So women tend to find a lot of value in creating. Cultures or organizational, uh, environments that people thrive [00:10:00] in and feel valued and wanna work and are part of something significant.

So there’s a book actually called The Web of Leadership Selling Helson, which talks about how women tend to bring people along and create an idea that a group can accomplish. But sometimes in a male normed organization that’s not viewed as leadership because the woman is not putting her hand up saying, I’m leading it, it’s my vision.

I’m making it happen. Which is the way a male normed culture. Mm-hmm. Use leadership. Mm-hmm. Okay. So I think sometimes what women value and what women are willing to put their, invest their lives in. Is not positional power or is not status because we tend not to draw our attention to ourselves. We tend to decentralize attention and be sure that collectively a group is owning it and making something important happen.

Maureen: So it makes sense. And it sounds like it’s largely based on how we’re socialized. And where we feel most comfortable. Mm-hmm. And yet I have coached people where the, the entering complaint was they don’t seem leaderly. [00:11:00] Mm-hmm. And that sense of leaderly was they don’t stand up and take charge. Mm-hmm.

They’re more collaborative. Mm-hmm.

Karen: It’s tricky because even reading in the newspaper, coming here to Atlanta, the headlines were the role that women will be playing in the US election. And the point was made that every, every president in US history has been a white male. So you can say that someone does not look presidential, but the fact is we’ve had every president be a white male.

So until Obama Yeah, true. If you don’t look like a male mm-hmm. Then you don’t look like a leader. And that’s been part of the accusations against some of the female candidates, even in the election here.

Maureen: Even in 2016. Mm-hmm. Which is interesting. Mm-hmm. So let’s shift to global. Mm-hmm. How is it, my assumption is.

Certainly there are other countries that already have female presidents. Mm-hmm. So there are others who, if that would be the measure are doing better, there are others that are doing much worse. Mm-hmm. Can you speak

Karen: a little bit to that? I would say that [00:12:00] it is very important to be attentive to the context that people are leading in.

So obviously if you read a book like Half the Sky mm-hmm. The conditions that Many Millions. Maybe billions of women are living in her appalling. Mm-hmm. Still. Mm-hmm. In terms of lack of education, lack of healthcare, lack of basic human needs, like Maslow’s hierarchy, and actually there are not very many women leaders in terms of the political scene around the world.

Mm-hmm. What seems to make the biggest difference is countries in Europe and Norway would be one example. In Scandinavia where the government has mandated a certain percentage of women on boards and the countries that are advancing the fastest seem to be the institution in terms of fully using women’s gifts.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Uh, if there is national legislation that says corporations of a certain size must have a certain percentage of women on the boards, mm-hmm. Norway has been a leader in the world on that. That seems to be making the biggest difference in terms of changing corporate culture. Okay. And organizational culture.

So in

Maureen: some [00:13:00] ways, the legislation really supports the social progress. Mm-hmm.

Karen: Mm-hmm. Um, equally so, uh, legislation that is supportive of a workplace climate or childcare legislation so that when women do have, uh, children, the laws, uh, equalize. The, the availability of both spouses to take care of both parents and take care of the child.

So definitely public policy can play a role and should be playing a role in trying to create countries where human potential and human capacity is freed up. The world loses, right? Mm-hmm. When you’ve got gifted women, half your population are living in environments that either may be completely progressive or marginalizing women’s gifts.

Mm-hmm. Or at least not fully embracing and.

Maureen: So do you have a recommendation for, if I’m a young woman and I wanna progress mm-hmm. What might I do? Mm-hmm. And if I’m a business owner that wants to support women mm-hmm. And I’m also financially constrained, what might I do that wouldn’t be expensive?

Mm-hmm. But would be [00:14:00] high impact. Mm-hmm.

Karen: If I were a young woman thinking about this, I think the more this would be impossible for people to do, but the more people know the literature and the fact that women tend to bring a more transformational and inclusive and empowering leadership style mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Where the company and the employees feel better about what they’re doing with their lives and fully investing themselves. Mm-hmm. This is very true for the millennial generation too. Okay. They wanna be invested in a cause that they believe in, and where they’re taken seriously.

Maureen: Mm-hmm.

Karen: And they make something happen.

So the research would say that what women bring to leadership is exceedingly important. And I think that women need to have confidence that what they bring can have value, even if it’s out of sync with a male norm culture. Mm-hmm. And you may feel marginalized, but to know that what you offer, uh, can make a difference in your company and that diversity of voices is important.

If I owned a company and had limited resources, you know, one of the fun parts of life is you meet people with [00:15:00] huge potential. Mm-hmm. You never know when you sit next to somebody on an airplane. Yeah. What that person has to offer and to hire right up and coming talent and then put wind under their wings is incredibly exciting.

So to get out of our stereotypes, there’s a huge movement around strengths based leadership now. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. To try to identify where are people good in any number of ways. Mm-hmm. Whether it’s the Gallup Clifton strengths binder Mm or other instruments, and affirm giftedness and put people into places to use their gift mix to contribute to a cause or a company.

There’s just huge capacity in the next generation of up and comers that we need to figure out how to deploy that.

Maureen: So it sounds like underlying that is understanding that a person in a female body mm-hmm. Has a different perspective in how we’ve defined leadership. Mm-hmm. In a traditionally male society is limited.

Mm-hmm. And limiting for our business success. Mm-hmm. And by expanding that, business owners will be better off and women will [00:16:00] have the opportunities. Mm-hmm.

Karen: Yeah. I think we also need a different definition of leadership. Leadership is the ability to mobilize people to get work done. Mm-hmm. Or the ability to make a difference by influencing other people.

Mm-hmm. And when we only think of positional and hierarchical leadership in male normed ways, and women don’t buy that package or don’t want that package, we risk losing the potential in the capacity that they would bring. So there’s a shorthand expression because some leaders were born women. We tend to think there is actually a leadership theory called think manager, think male, that we tend to think of leaders as being male, but I think we need to think outside of those boxes and begin to think about giftedness and talent and a huge body of literature now on calling.

What do people feel called to do with their lives? What do they feel burdened to make a difference? Mm-hmm. Whether it’s relieving a country of poverty or working in healthcare. Mm-hmm. And how do you free up the capacity of people that wanna make a difference in that sphere of influence. Mm-hmm. So I think we need to think about [00:17:00] leadership with a different, broader definition.

Mm-hmm. Of being able to get good work done.

Maureen: You know, even though I define it the same way you do, I realize in listening and coming up through an environment that was very male dominated, I had some biases because of how I grew up. Mm-hmm. That even as a female who wants women to succeed and has been quite active mm-hmm.

I’ve succeeded by adopting male behavior. Mm-hmm. And I personally need to change how I’m thinking about it. Mm-hmm. And if I need to change it as a female activist mm-hmm. Certainly men who it’s just not their issue. Mm-hmm. Need to refine how they’re thinking about leadership. Mm-hmm. And are implicit biases.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Thank you so much, Karen. I’m delighted that you joined us. Thank you.