Innovating Leadership:
Co-Creating Our Future

Maureen: Hi. My name’s Maureen Metcalf. I’m your host.

With us today, I am delighted to have Belinda Gore. Belinda’s, a psychologist, coach and experienced teacher, skilled in supporting high level learning and personal development as a senior faculty with the Deep Coaching Institute.

She uses the Enneagram system along with 30 years of experience in facilitating change to help coaches and leadership consult. Learn to embody deep level transformation through the practice of presence. While specific tools may assist them in their work, it’s their very presence that most often initiates the extraordinary shifts in consciousness in individuals and in organizations that create deep change.

Belinda. Played a key role in defining the innovative leadership framework that this show is based on, and also in authoring the books. And she’s been a partner, a friend, and a trusted colleague, and was my teacher in the Deep Leadership Institute when I went through the coaching training. So I’m delighted to have her joining us.

This show, [00:01:00] the Innovative Leadership Series, is focusing on helping leaders innovate how you lead. In order to keep up with the changes we’re currently facing. And so my goal each week is to present new ideas and practices for you to learn from and to put into practice in your daily life. And I realize making weekly changes seems like a lot.

And so I treat these like experiments and my hope is. That you will find something to experiment with each week. It’s interesting, we’re coming up on our hundredth show and the person interviewing me challenged me to write up the experiments I have put into practice over the hundred weeks of interviews really to test am I doing what I say other people should be doing.

And so it’s been. Exciting to look at the changes I’ve made over the last, well, more than a hundred hours of interviews. And so again, I hope that people who are regular listeners are seeing significant changes and improvements in the way you lead, as I have in the way I lead. So [00:02:00] the outcome of this session, part of the challenge of building innovative leadership is learning to become more introspective in how you put.

Introspective knowledge into practice. So it, it’s good to be introspective, but more helpful when we actually do something with it. So looking inside yourself and examining the very makeup of your inner world enables you to function in a highly grounded way rather than operating from reactive habits and biases that simply lead to less informed and unconscious decision making.

One way to observe this is by examining qualities intrinsic to your inner being described as types which reflect the basic makeup of your personality. The leader personality type plays a critical role in how you see the organization and how you provide guidance. It’s an essential foundation of your personal makeup.

And greatly shapes your leadership effectiveness. We’ll explore how the use of type can help you become a more effective leader. So welcome, Belinda. I’m delighted that you’re here.

Belinda: Thanks. This is [00:03:00] great. I’m glad to be here too. We’ve had lots of conversations over many, many years about this material, but this is a great way to kind of touch base on where we are now.

Maureen: Yeah, I’m delighted that. Part of my reason for doing the show is to share the conversations that I get to have all the time with people who have different lives than I do and don’t get to talk about this stuff all the time. So let’s shift into starting with what’s personality type. We’ve all heard the words, and my guess is most people think they know what it is.

Mm-hmm. And we may be. Defining it differently.

Belinda: Hmm. Well, bear in mind here and bear with me. I am a psychologist by training and practice, and so I’m interested in things like ego development.

Maureen: Mm-hmm.

Belinda: But I think to put it simply, personality type is a way of looking at all the data of how people behave.

And how people think and what people bias people’s [00:04:00] biases and beliefs are, and looking for patterns. And there are patterns. Now, sometimes we’ve looked at patterns like from the perspective, uh, I think the early way we’ve looked at leadership patterns as type A and type B.

Maureen: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Belinda: But that’s pretty simplistic.

And so if we. Take that a little further. Lots of people are familiar with strengths finders, which was a Gallup effort to collect data and find patterns. But in looking at personality type, some typologies are more based on a theory mm-hmm. Of why we are the way we are, not just to define types in terms of patterns of different ways, different people.

Maureen: Mm.

Belinda: Operate.

Maureen: So I wanna ask a question that goes to, some people argue about the validity of personality type assessments. Mm-hmm. And I know you did some work with Comb Ricker [00:05:00] and her doctoral work in discussing the efficacy of the Enneagram system and how it’s used specifically in leadership.

Development.

Belinda: Right. More specifically, her doctoral research looked at a leadership development program for middle managers. Mm-hmm. In a fairly large company, we were not so much validating the typology of are the discreet types. Accurately identified and reflected. Mm-hmm. In the system. There is other research to support that, but rather how effective was that system in supporting middle managers in first being able to.

Cultivate greater self-awareness. Mm-hmm. And then to be able to better understand the similarities and differences in the people they managed. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And their teams. Mm-hmm. And also in terms of leading upstream of understanding. The [00:06:00] nature of senior leadership decision making. Mm-hmm. And how to translate that in implementation of strategic decisions.

Maureen: Cool. Thank you for sharing that. One of my personal goals is to use well researched frameworks, and I know people get into the discussion about which ones are most valid and all of that. Mm-hmm. And what was most. Interesting to me about this is this, tology is useful in developing leaders. Right. So while I care that it’s valid, I care more that we have a shared language and having that shared language and a way to assess

Belinda: mm-hmm.

Maureen: Allows us as leaders to develop and create more effective organizations.

Belinda: Yeah. Let me speak just for a moment about this whole validity issue.

Maureen: Mm-hmm.

Belinda: We are a very individualistic society and some people are resistant to the idea of typology. They say, you can’t pigeonhole me.

Maureen: Mm-hmm. [00:07:00]

Belinda: But that’s as misguided.

As believing that we don’t have similarities of patterns in our physiological makeup. Mm-hmm. As well as our psychological makeup. I mean, everybody has a different body, but we all have a skeleton that’s pretty much the same, and we all have organs and musculature and fortunately we can learn about that and provide for good healthcare.

Maureen: Mm-hmm.

Belinda: Similarly. If I’m looking at personality, if in the same way that I look at my physiological patterns, then if I know that I’m prone to diabetes because of family patterns, I behave in certain ways to prevent becoming diabetic. Mm-hmm. And if I know that I have, uh, type three Enneagram

Maureen: mm-hmm.

Belinda: Structuring, then I know there are things for me to look for that will allow me to be more effective as a leader.

Maureen: So, and again, I’m asking as if we haven’t had these conversations, but [00:08:00] I, I personally, because we’re both type threes

Belinda: mm-hmm.

Maureen: I have used this. I know what the strengths are, right? I know what the challenges are,

Belinda: right.

Maureen: And that awareness has helped me interact with people more effectively.

Belinda: Exactly. I think it’s interesting, this was almost 20 years ago, but Stanford, the Stanford Graduate School of Business asked its advisory council, so you know, big leaders around the world, what they should focus on in their curriculum.

Maureen: Mm-hmm.

Belinda: In training business leaders. Mm-hmm. And they were very surprised, frankly, that the huge majority said the most important thing was to cultivate self-awareness. And reduce denial. I mean, of all the budgeting and technology and management, blah, blah, blah. Mm-hmm. That the most important thing is self-awareness.

Because that’s what guides our decision making.

Maureen: So I just [00:09:00] finished an MBA teaching an MBA class, and they did their presentations, uh, a couple days ago. And when we went around at the end of the class and talked about what they had learned in this semester. What’s typically seemed to come out was I thought I was gonna learn about leadership, but really I learned about myself.

Belinda: Right?

Maureen: And making the connection that if I dunno who I am, having the checklist of how leaders behave mm-hmm. Is really inauthentic because I’m mimicking what somebody else does not, not having the practice of presence.

Belinda: And at the same time, not understanding that I am having an impact on the organization, whether I know it or not.

Maureen: Mm-hmm.

Belinda: So, very interesting research at the Glen School at

Maureen: mm-hmm.

Belinda: Ohio State University about how. The financial decision making of what? CEO leaders, CEOs, or CFOs, how that was directly impacting the financial decision [00:10:00] making in the company. I think you and I attended that. Yeah. Program together some years ago, and I was really struck by how the research was very tight and.

In fact, leaders affect their organizations. Organizations come to be shaped by the personalities of the leaders.

Maureen: And that goes all the way from CEO down to the most middle

Belinda: managers, team leaders.

Maureen: Mm-hmm.

Belinda: That’s exactly right.

Maureen: So if I’m risk averse, which was the example of the CEO study.

Belinda: Mm-hmm.

Maureen: Those who have multiple houses tend to be more willing to spend in their business and those who are very conservative financially.

Ran a very different type of organization financially.

Belinda: Exactly.

Maureen: Which is fascinating to me.

Belinda: Yes.

Maureen: And coming from a place of self-awareness, I can modulate how I choose.

Belinda: Yes, I can be aware of those patterns so that instead of, as you said, instead of being reactive [00:11:00] based on what my gut instinct is, sometimes gut instinct is great, and sometimes it’s just an unconscious pattern.

Mm-hmm. Based on. My personality type and what my early life experiences were, and it feels right to me, but it’s not really good decision making for my organization.

Maureen: Well, which is interesting to discern, right?

Belinda: Right, exactly.

Maureen: I wanna give another example of where type, and we can come back to this after break, where type guides me in working not only with myself, but with others.

Belinda: Yes.

Maureen: So I. I have a very close friend who’s a challenger type, and what I learned as we were dealing with an incredibly complex situation was she always jumps in with the answer,

Belinda: right?

Maureen: And I found myself deferring because I thought someone with that confidence must be right.

Belinda: Yeah. And that’s just really her personality strategy.

Maureen: It’s not, she’s no more right or no more thoughtful mm-hmm. Than I am. But I needed to be aware of [00:12:00] that inclination.

Belinda: Mm-hmm.

Maureen: Because I was reading it as the only time I am that clear is when I’ve done a lot of research and I knew the answer. Yeah. Other people. React differently, and for me to be able to evaluate and categorize almost what does this response mean from this person versus when you would jump in the same way.

Belinda: Mm-hmm. Yes.

Maureen: You would have a very clear, well thought out plan.

Belinda: One thing I always say when I’m teaching the Enneagram in terms of interpersonal relationship is the biggest trouble we all get in when we’re dealing with other people is we assume other people are just like us. And so we believe that what they do and what they say is the same as what we would do or say given a certain orientation.

Mm-hmm. And a certain take on a situation. And that’s not true. So we either think people are just like us or we think they should be, and we try to get well. Yeah. There is a change to be [00:13:00] that way. Yeah.

Maureen: On that note, let’s go to break. ’cause it would be nice if everyone wants make just

Belinda: like me. Yes.

Maureen: It would make life easier.

We

Belinda: could change the world. Yes.

Maureen: So we wanna go into a little more detail of what is the Enneagram, and just quickly what are the nine types? And one of the things. Belinda that you’ve talked about is the idea that we’re not one type, but in fact, having access to all types is a sign of maturity.

Belinda: Right. So first of all, Enneagram is based on the Greek ennea for nine. Mm-hmm. And a diagram of nine equidistant points around a circle. Okay. So there are nine patterns that have been identified in three Subgroupings, and I won’t go into all of the various ways we can use the Enneagram, but it’s. Really a pretty sophisticated tool.

I often say that the Myers-Briggs type indicator, the MBTI kind of tilled the [00:14:00] soil to get us ready for some more sophisticated ways of understanding how. Ego development works and, and manifests as different personality styles. A, a real quick run through this is hardly fair to the system, but let’s give it a try.

Type one is sometimes known as the reformer and type one leaders are very clear about setting. Expectations, guidelines, the right way to do things and can be rigid, but can also take that capacity for seeing the right way and recognize the kinds of improvements that need to be made. So. They’re leaders you can rely on to hold steady on a course.

We think about people like, oh, I’ll use Ralph Nader for instance, who was always looking [00:15:00] to how do we improve? So it’s that focus on improvement and reforming. Type two is sometimes called the helper. It’s a more emotional type or style. And in leadership, these are leaders who are very concerned about the welfare and wellbeing, both of employees and of other people.

And so sometimes leaders in nonprofits who are looking at how do we. Make the world a better place. How do we help people?

Maureen: So if you’re a Star Trek fan, this is Dr. McCoy.

Belinda: Okay.

Maureen: And if you’re a Star Trek fan, type one is the ref. Is Dr. Spock

Belinda: Spock? Yes, indeed. Who seems somewhat unemotional, but we know underneath that you really does have some very.

Clear emotional patterns. Type three is sometimes called the motivator. There are a lot of high level leaders who function at type three because [00:16:00] there’s an orientation to what will be successful, what will make the organization successful, what do we need to do to achieve our goals to. Function in a way that will be both profitable and be admired in the industry.

Maureen: Mm-hmm.

Belinda: So higher level type threes are actually good leaders. Mm-hmm. For organizations, because our culture is somewhat three-ish, type four is, again, more emotional. Fours are great innovators because they are highly individualistic. And are interested in the individualism of people on the team, and how can we be creative?

How can we do things in new ways? Obviously that’s better in research and development maybe. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Or in arts organizations, sometimes people [00:17:00] find that there’s too much emotionality. The leadership development work that I’ve done at the Ohio State University and the results that I get, type four is usually pretty low in the personality profiles of emerging leaders.

Maureen: I work with engineers and there aren’t any

Belinda: type, aren’t any, but we go to type five and now you start getting more into engineers.

Maureen: Well, and type six, but let’s go to type five

Belinda: first. Yeah. Five is. More of a thinking type. There is an orientation to doing research, gathering data, seeing the patterns, predicting control.

But data is what is more highly valued and often emotional skills are underdeveloped. And so we make jokes about engineers, but in fact, we know that in organizations that are highly oriented in that way mm-hmm. It’s like, you know, [00:18:00] we

Maureen: don’t do that.

Belinda: Forget about office parties for birthdays and also don’t, let’s not worry about.

Dress codes.

Mm-hmm.

Belinda: You know, we, we have work to do here.

Maureen: Yeah. So that’s Bill Gates.

Belinda: Mm-hmm.

Maureen: And I have a story about a colleague. I tend to surround myself with type fives.

Belinda: Yes.

Maureen: And I’m not, and, and so the, the thing that has been fascinating to me about understanding my colleagues who are of this type is they’re so often having a conversation in their heads.

That’s probably more interesting than anything I could say. Mm-hmm. So an exciting launch with someone who’s a type five is watching them do a crossword puzzle. Well, I’m thinking of a very specific person in my life. Alright. So for me it was important to learn that quiet was not a personal affront. No.

Right. It’s, it’s just,

Belinda: yes. A word that’s used with type five is eccentric. And sometimes geeky. Mm-hmm. If you see [00:19:00] photographs of Bill Gates when they were first starting the organization, I mean, he looks 12 years old with big, thick glasses on, you know, he still looks, yeah. Well, I mean, you know, that’s reflective of that type six is sometimes called the traditionalist.

These are, the pattern of this type is toward. Fitting in wanting to have agreements about roles and responsibilities, to have the structure in place and functioning within that structure, even if there’s a rebellion against it. One leader said, I wanna know where the yellow line is in the middle of the road.

Maureen: Mm-hmm.

Belinda: I might choose to cross it, but it at least defines the limits, the structure of the road. Mm-hmm.

Maureen: Mm-hmm.

Belinda: Type seven is much more entrepreneurial. It is a type that given [00:20:00] the choice of chocolate, vanilla, or strawberry will always say all three yes and more. Yes. So optimistic, energetic. Innovative, not always able to stay with something to take a deeper dive.

Mm-hmm.

Maureen: Mm-hmm.

Belinda: And so they might get bored and go off onto another track. Mm-hmm. That would not be as useful for the organization’s strategic goals. And then type eight is the challenger that you were mentioning before. This is. The boss, the kind of my way or the highway. And again, we have a lot of strong leaders in big positions around the world who function in that way.

And I might say that both Trump and Putin are type eight personalities.

Maureen: The, the image I have in in my presentation is John Wayne.

Belinda: Sure. Yeah. But

Maureen: you can count on me.

Belinda: There is a solidity

Maureen: mm-hmm.

Belinda: To that type, John [00:21:00] Wayne is the version that’s quieter. Okay. And then there’s a version that’s not so quiet.

Maureen: Mm-hmm.

Belinda: Tony Soprano, for instance, is, is another version of that. So Tony Soprano and John Wayne. So,

Maureen: so what I think is interesting here is physiologically

Belinda: mm-hmm.

Maureen: That we respond to the leader who has the answers. Mm-hmm.

Belinda: Yes.

Maureen: So. As physiological beings, we’re almost programmed in some ways to trust someone like this.

Belinda: Mm-hmm.

Maureen: Although I would not personally want Tony Soprano leading much of anything,

Belinda: but there’s, uh, I think when we talk about presence later

Maureen: mm-hmm.

Belinda: Often people with type eight personalities are large in their presence. Mm-hmm. Whether that’s a big body, a heavy body, but when they come in the room, you kind of feel the.

Maureen: Big personality.

Belinda: The big personality. Exactly.

Maureen: And, and interestingly, big personality doesn’t necessarily mean better [00:22:00] leader.

Belinda: Exactly. But you know, it’s like the inner kid and all of us says, oh, here’s a grownup. Mm-hmm. You know, he or she obviously knows what she’s doing and that’s not always true. There are, uh, people of this personality type who are not healthy at all, but.

They have the confidence and the presence to seem to say, you know, follow me we’ll be fine. Mm-hmm.

Maureen: Yeah, follow me will be fine. Irrespective of the reality.

Belinda: Yeah.

Maureen: In some cases,

Belinda: because follow me means let, we’re gonna do it my way, you know?

Maureen: Yeah.

Belinda: And was it Patton who said, damn the torpedoes, full steam ahead, whoever that was.

It’s like we’re doing this and damn the torpedoes. And that’s not always a good position to take when you’re leading, especially

Maureen: in a complex environment.

Belinda: Exactly, yes.

Maureen: Okay. And then type nine.

Belinda: Yes. The nine [00:23:00] pattern is sometimes called the peacemaker or the mediator. And the real strength here is the ability to see situations through multiple perspectives.

When a person with a Type nine personality is well grounded and pretty healthy, they can hold their own perspective and. Then identify with other people’s perspectives as well. So there’s a, a capacity to feel into what’s going on in the dynamics of the situation and maybe the leadership group, or with the vendors or with the competitors.

Mm-hmm. And a sense, a direction that will be the least conflictual really.

Maureen: And so one of the examples I use here is Lincoln.

Belinda: Yes.

Maureen: So not that they avoid conflict when conflict is required.

Belinda: Mm-hmm.

Maureen: But they don’t create additional [00:24:00] conflict

Belinda: and try to mediate. There’s some debate about is Obama a nine or a three?

And as a three, I tended to see some nine ishness. Mm-hmm. I haven’t talked with him, so I don’t know. But his desire to find a way. That would use diplomacy rather than force.

Maureen: Mm-hmm.

Belinda: Is, is more of a nine style.

Maureen: Okay. So interesting. And we’re not going politics, but to use examples of Trump being an eight more force.

Belinda: Mm-hmm.

Maureen: Obama being, if not nine, strong access to nine more diplomatic.

Belinda: Mm-hmm.

Maureen: As we think about who do we want leading our country or our company.

Belinda: Right.

Maureen: Or our group.

Belinda: Right.

Maureen: Understanding these kinds of orientations is helpful.

Belinda: Yes. And different circumstances really call for different mm-hmm. Styles of leadership.

Mm-hmm. But something you [00:25:00] mentioned earlier is that the most important thing is that a leader is being authentic to herp personality style.

Maureen: Mm-hmm.

Belinda: So that. If I know who I am, I’m not gonna try to pretend to be something else, but rather I’m gonna recognize where my root,

Maureen: mm-hmm.

Belinda: Core type is. Mm-hmm. And then know that I have access to all eight other.

Patterns, but I do that consciously rather than trying to mimic someone else.

Maureen: So let’s talk briefly about that idea that I have access to all. Mm-hmm. Because I don’t know, we often put someone in a box and say you’re a three, or you’re an extrovert or an introvert, and is as if that’s a label that can’t be removed.

Mm-hmm. And you’re saying, and my experience is. I know my core type and yet it, it’s like the dial on the radio, right? I can change the dial if I don’t wanna listen to the news,

Belinda: right? Um, [00:26:00] the personality. Pattern is our default position.

Maureen: Mm-hmm.

Belinda: It’s where we will go if we don’t use consciousness.

Maureen: Mm-hmm.

Belinda: To assess the situation and identify what is most called for.

It’s also though that if I know that I’m not a particularly good mediator, that that would be useful for me to bring in someone else.

Maureen: Mm-hmm.

Belinda: To have. A person with mediator skills on the leadership team and bring that person in and give them the support and the authority to do the things that I’m not so highly skilled at.

Maureen: So at the end of the last break, we were joking about it would be nice if everyone were us, and yet the, the reality is effective organizations have all types

Belinda: Yes.

Maureen: And hopefully in the proportion that allows us to do our work most effectively.

Belinda: Yes.

Maureen: So we would select based on personality [00:27:00] type as well as skill.

And often we call that fit.

Belinda: Hmm. And what organizations have to be careful about is that they don’t say, okay, here’s our culture.

Maureen: Mm-hmm.

Belinda: This is who we wanna be, so we wanna bring in everybody who’s just like us. And so the diversity mm-hmm. Isn’t available within the organization. Lots of times I talk with HR people about diversity.

Isn’t just, uh, color, race or race, ethnicity, et et et cetera, but also in terms of orientation, perspective, personality patterns. Mm-hmm. And that a strong organization needs diversity

Maureen: mm-hmm.

Belinda: In skills, in, in psychological skills.

Maureen: Mm-hmm.

Belinda: To deal with a variety of. Circumstances in a highly changing world.

Maureen: So I think of the contrast between Obama and Trump at any given time.

You need both of those types on the team. Mm-hmm. Now, those two people may not choose to [00:28:00] work together.

Belinda: Mm-hmm.

Maureen: But ultimately having strong capacity in in both, rather than the pendulum swinging back and forth. Yes. Between administrations, having administrations that are highly populated with the capacity to be forceful

Belinda: Yes.

Maureen: And the capacity to be diplomat.

Belinda: And as we spoke about Lincoln, I think one of the things that surprised so many people was that he brought onto his cabinet people who were supposedly his enemies.

Mm-hmm.

Belinda: And that he understood the value of, of having. All voices represented.

Maureen: And in fact, when we look at some of the leader 2050 competencies, one of them is collaboration and the ability not just to get along with people who are like me.

Belinda: Yes,

Maureen: but the importance of soliciting alternate perspectives and integrating, not bending to, but you want force, you want diplomacy. What’s, what is the complex [00:29:00] solution that leverages. Both.

Belinda: Mm-hmm.

Maureen: Qualities. Sorry, I keep going back to that one. But given our current world conditions, it seems both are important and the proportion changes based on the right specific situation.

Belinda: Knowledge of the Enneagram helps us understand the motivation behind certain behaviors, so that. We don’t get caught in, uh, reactive behavior, but can be responsive. And I think that’s one thing you’re talking about is how do we become responsive to the circumstances around us and make choices based on what tends to motivate me and is that an appropriate.

Response to what I’m dealing with in the moment and how can I draw on other people’s strengths to engage what they can be passionate about. [00:30:00] Because that provides the extra energy.

Maureen: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Belinda: That will keep a team going during difficult times because somebody is passionate about one thing.

Maureen: Mm-hmm.

Belinda: That can drive us forward, that can affect the psychological, emotional field in the group.

Maureen: Mm-hmm.

Belinda: As well as just the tasks that need to be done.

Maureen: So as the leader of a group, one more thing I need to do, which is not always welcome, but highly important, is that ability to to sense and experience where people have energy, where they have an orientation or a bias.

Mm-hmm. And basically like being a good chef. Hmm. I’m pulling the ingredients to make a fabulous meal. Meal being the work product. Right. Or the, the outcome for a client or for a nation or for a softball team.

Belinda: Right.

Maureen: To, to leverage the best of each person. Mm-hmm. And part of that is. [00:31:00] Type and energy.

Belinda: And then that also relates to how do I speak to somebody who has a different perspective and motivation than I do in leadership training.

One of the things that we do that maybe we can talk about a little more in detail after the break mm-hmm. Is learning how to. To people of different types in ways that are effective.

Maureen: Perfect. Thank you.

We’re talking about the Enneagram personality type system, and specifically how understanding my personality type helps me be a more effective leader and how it helps me run a more effective organization. So, Belinda, before the break, we were talking about how an understanding of type helps me relate better and talk to people differently.

Belinda: Yeah. Communicate effectively. Really in the leadership development program that we researched with the doctoral. Research that I was speaking about earlier. One thing we included, it was a four day program. So two days, [00:32:00] about six weeks in between to process, do some homework. Mm-hmm. And then two more days.

And in the last two days we did a lot of role play and we created situations that were pretty standard in the company. Write down how you would normally handle that.

Maureen: Mm-hmm.

Belinda: And then now you know that this person has a Type seven personality style. How would you modify,

Maureen: mm-hmm.

Belinda: What you would say then we have somebody who.

Does have a type seven personality, be the person in the role play and various members of the group would come up and deal with that individual in that role play situation based on what they thought was effective. And the type seven person would vote, uh uh, would, would indicate thumbs up or thumbs down.

Was that an effect? Of communication for them, and people were stunned by how many thumbs downs they got. And [00:33:00] these are pretty seasoned middle managers, and they say, this has always worked for me well. No, it’s always been your preferred way of dealing with things that

Maureen: doesn’t

Belinda: even work, but it doesn’t land with people of types who are pretty different from yours.

So that was a great learning and one of the outcomes that part of the feedback we received from participants was two things. A desire for more training to really stay with the system, to really understand it, and also to build out implementation of. Training for all employees, so that, as you were saying earlier, there’s a shared vocabulary mm-hmm.

Uh, shared orientation. Mm-hmm. About how does all of this work,

Maureen: and that’s where I go when people try to move into the disagreements about this system is better than that system is in some ways. While I prefer the Enneagram, I wanna be agnostic and say that the point isn’t to open your brain and clearly predict [00:34:00] every part of you, but it is to have a system that.

Most closely approximates and that we can use effectively. Right. So let’s get about doing it works. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And if it gets better, and I’m sure the folks at the Enneagram Institute continue to build on what they’ve done and it, and refine just as we do in other areas of the world. And let’s use what we have rather than getting caught up in what’s the best system.

Belinda: There is an international Enneagram association that covers the whole Enneagram community globally. There are a number of people who teach about the Enneagram and business, and so there are a lot of resources now available.

Maureen: Mm-hmm. So I wanna ask one more thing and then move into presence.

Belinda: Mm-hmm.

Maureen: When we were working together, initially we talked about type as a I am A type.

Belinda: Mm-hmm.

Maureen: And then we talked about I have access to all types, so it’s not, I have to narrow myself down and be a type three.

Belinda: Mm-hmm.

Maureen: But in fact, as I’m mature, I [00:35:00] have more access to all types. Can you speak to that a little bit?

Belinda: The thing is that we are whole beings, but we don’t develop. Our whole selves, they say that a 2-year-old is a genius, and by the time we get to be 20, we have done what’s called neural pruning so that our nervous systems have less and less capacity to be truly innovative and.

So given that mm-hmm. Um, we have to re cultivate our natural ability to have diverse skills. The core type is the tap root, the root that goes deepest into the unconscious that structures. The personality, and so as I said earlier, it’s the default position. It’s what we tend to believe, what we tend to do if we don’t stop and recognize our reactive tendencies and consciously think [00:36:00] about other possible perspectives or other possible ways of responding to a situation.

Yeah. Is that what you were asking about

Maureen: it? It is. And that idea of being conscious seems like such a simple idea, but over 90% of our behavior is unconscious.

Belinda: Right.

Maureen: My joke in, in groups is it’s why I put my pants on every morning. It doesn’t matter how tired I am, I, I never walk out of the house without.

Garments. Yes. Alright. It’s good that my unconscious brain is programmed to do that.

Belinda: Yes.

Maureen: Because if I were tired, it would be really embarrassing to get someplace without

Belinda: clothes on proper attire. Those are the nightmares many of us have, right?

Maureen: Yeah, they are. And so we count on our unconscious brain and yet.

We haven’t always cultivated, and this moves us into presence, I think, into the capacity to know when to be conscious about things that I would otherwise do unconsciously,

Belinda: right? Unconscious [00:37:00] patterns or even instinct allows us to deal with. So much data, sensory input information, we can’t possibly, consciously think about everything.

Mm-hmm. We, we just, it’s too much. However, conscious awareness means recognizing the patterns that shape our unconscious behavior so that we can recognize them. And in our culture, the biggest challenge is to be fully in our bodies and to be aware of what’s happening in the moment in our bodies that is relating to what’s real.

In our environments. I don’t know if that came out very clearly,

Maureen: so, so can you give an example? ’cause I know when I first started working with you, I would totally resist and say I’m not in my body and that lets me do more. And the fact that I drink coffee all the time and I’m tired and I still [00:38:00] get stuff done.

Makes me more effective. Mm. Now we’re learning from mindfulness and other areas that that is in fact false.

Belinda: Right?

Maureen: Can you say more or give an example of what it means to be in my body and how that actually helps me be a more effective leader?

Belinda: I’m kind of taking this from a slightly different angle. Is that.

We develop ideas or concepts about what’s going on.

Maureen: Mm-hmm.

Belinda: About who we are, our self-image, who other people are, what we believe is happening in the organization. And if you remember I said that the Stanford advisory mm-hmm. Council said, reducing denial. Well, denial is a defense mechanism against being aware of what’s really happening.

An example of that is that we find that leaders often solve problems they know how to solve rather than solving the problems that really exist. I’m

Maureen: [00:39:00] probably guilty of that,

Belinda: so that if there are, I don’t know, staff problems, that if I believe that staff training and communication skills mm-hmm. Is the answer.

Mm-hmm. Then I set people up to go to communication training, which means that I may not be solving the problem of the interpersonal conflict. Mm-hmm. That’s right in front of me. Because I don’t know how to do that,

Maureen: so I do something else.

Belinda: So I do something that I know how to do. Exactly.

Maureen: So I wanna go back to then, so I, I play to my strengths or my biases.

Belinda: Mm-hmm.

Maureen: And so this idea of being in my body and how do I know when I am not on track?

Belinda: Yes. Well, yeah. Let’s speak to first just what showing up means. Okay. Which is what presence is.

Maureen: Okay.

Belinda: People sometimes talk about charisma as having a big presence, like we were talking about type eight or challengers.

[00:40:00] You know, I walk in the room. Mm-hmm. There’s a big presence, but gravitas is a word. Sometimes we use to speak about how people walk in a room and maybe you don’t notice them immediately, but if you’re interacting with them, they seem really centered. And grounded and present. I’m right here, right now. I’m making eye contact with you.

You feel me?

Maureen: Mm-hmm.

Belinda: Present with you. You feel seen and heard, and you experience me as reliably right here and authentic. And that’s what we’re talking about with presence, that I’m showing up as the person I am to the best degree. I, I am capable of doing that. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I’m able to stay present in myself to authentically relate to you as another person.

You are not a character in my [00:41:00] story.

Maureen: And that, that whole, that comment, the, you’re not a character of my story merits exploration because for most of us, we’ve got the dialogue going in our head and it’s again, based on unconscious stories and experiences. And so how do I, how do I step out of that? As the person who is present with you

Belinda: first, we look at what are the stories that I tend to tell myself.

Maureen: Mm-hmm.

Belinda: And that requires, as you said, some interpersonal, uh, no intrapersonal. Awareness and exploration that I have to look at. What are my beliefs? What do I believe about? Is everybody out to get me? Is everybody else smarter than I am? You know, there are lots of stories we tell ourselves and we need to explore.

What’s my belief?

Maureen: Mm

Belinda: about who I am and how I relate to the world and what the world is all about. [00:42:00] And then I start to look for cues that I am playing that story. And one thing I do with people is to just say, if you’re in the story that everybody’s smarter than I am. Let’s take a few breaths and find out what does that story feel like in your body.

And sometimes people will feel like their shoulders are hunched or they may have butterflies in their stomach or they feel like they’re little and they’re looking up at the grownups

Maureen: treading water.

Belinda: Ah,

Maureen: I have to work

Belinda: harder. Ah, yes.

Maureen: So I’m paddling, I’m the duck paddling so hard underwater.

Belinda: Mm-hmm.

Maureen: To look smooth on the top.

Belinda: Perfect. So that’s a great example. Now, when you find yourself in situations, you can pause and say, how hard am I paddling? How fast are my little

Maureen: feet

Belinda: fins or feet? Feet going under the water?

Maureen: And for me, what I often hear [00:43:00] is, okay, you’ve suggested something. That’s an extra thing on my to-do list. Does that mean I’m gonna be working till 10 tonight or 11?

Hmm. So I have to work harder to be as good as you are.

Belinda: Mm-hmm.

Maureen: Or as good as whomever.

Belinda: Hmm.

Maureen: And so my mental calculation is always, what’s the to-do list and how do I get it all done?

Belinda: Yes. So that’s what drives the paddling. Then the next thing we look at is, what do I have to do to be as good as you are?

And that’s a belief in a value being less than. And sometimes people feel better than, and sometimes people feel disconnected. So there are lots of ways that we discover we orient toward other people.

Maureen: So I feel like we’re incomplete and, and that we should do a whole show on presence because it’s such an important topic.

But hopefully this gave our listeners an idea of gravitas that by understanding who I am, being more [00:44:00] self-aware, understanding my story and how. That innately drives everything I do. I can unplug from that story and actually be present with the precious humans around me. Mm-hmm. Whether they’re my colleagues or my boss, or my children, or the kids at the softball.

Team or someone in my community that that ability to be present is the biggest gift we can give people. That I can bring myself.

Belinda: And that’s what authentic leadership is all about. And curiously, the more authentic we are, the more innovative we are.

Maureen: As long as I can step out of the story,

Belinda: yes,

Maureen: I’m not maintaining that falsity

Belinda: and I can see other options.

’cause I’m not driven by keeping up. Staying in this rut.

Maureen: So thank you so much, and we have to do another show. This is Belinda Gore, our guest, Maureen Metcalf, innovative leaders driving thriving organizations. I hope you, as [00:45:00] our listeners heard something that is. Interesting that you are able to take away and put into practice.

Please give me feedback. I can be reached at either Facebook, innovative leaders driving thriving organizations or info@metcalfassociates.com. Let us know what your experiment was. Based on the conversation with Belinda and tell me what you want me to ask her next time she comes back.

Belinda: Thank you.