Innovating Leadership:
Co-Creating Our Future

Maureen: [00:00:00] Hi, welcome Gama Perruci. Please tell us a little bit about yourself. And we are at the International Leadership Association Conference. Gamma is one of the founding members of the International Leadership Association. Is that right?

Gama: Well, I’m the, the first, uh, chair of the board of directors of when, uh, the International Leadership Association became an independent organization of 5 0 1 C3 organization.

So I was appointed by the board as the first chair. But my other hat is the Dean of the McDonough Leadership School at, uh, Marietta College in uh, Ohio, but also a scholar. And I also write about leadership.

Maureen: Tell us a little bit about your book from last year that you’re a co-author of.

Gama: Sure. The title of the book is Understanding Leadership and Arts and Humanities Perspective was published by Rutledge, but with my co-author, uh, Robert [00:01:00] McManus.

But, um, in, in the book, uh, what we, uh, the main emphasis of the book is to understand leadership. It’s not just to talk about the leader. And I think in a way the, the field still is struggling. The field of leadership struggling to move away, uh, from that, too much emphasis on what leaders do and that personality Uhhuh cult.

And in the book we emphasize four other components that we need to pay attention to. So, for instance, uh, we also, uh, pay close attention to, uh, followership. Okay. Followers.

Maureen: Can you give a little more information about what followers are and how do I as a leader inspire followership?

Gama: Oh, certainly. No, the, the importance here is that we see, especially through technology and communication mm-hmm.

How followers are becoming [00:02:00] mobilized. Mm-hmm. And, uh, developing their own voice. And very powerfully, particularly in the area of politics, we see the Arab spurring different, uh, movements. The only thing that you see is. Uh, that, uh, with these kinds of movements, uh, whenever you don’t have, uh, leaders working with followers, each movements, uh, don’t tend to be as successful, which is an interesting area for research.

A lot of the Arab Spring movements just, uh, took off, but then. Disappeared and were not, uh, as effective. So that’s, that’s the one other component to the upper one is the emphasis on the goal. Uh, so to what extent, uh, leaders and followers agree on a common goal?

Maureen: So the Arab Spring, how would that have looked if there were a common goal and leaders?

’cause it seemed like the groundswell was [00:03:00] what made it so powerful.

Gama: It made powerful but not lasting. Okay. It did not produce, you could make the distinction between the French Revolution and the American Revolution, that the American Revolution had a clear delineation in terms of leaders and, and then, uh, followers, but then the French Revolution, and in the beginning that it did not have clear leaders and the followers rose.

And, and that is to say that this phenomenon, followership is not new. Arab Spring is not new. The French Revolution mm-hmm. Was in fact, uh, very similar, but it became so violent, so it, it did not produce in the short run the kinds of changes that they were hoping. Now, eventually with the, we end up the republics.

Mm-hmm. And that it, it had a, a positive, uh, outcome. But, uh, the third item that we talk [00:04:00]about, uh, so you have leaders, followers, goals. A lot of our discussion about, uh, leadership today only, uh, has these three components. They say, well, leaders work with followers and they achieve goals. That’s it. And yet this all happens in the context.

Exactly. Okay. Exactly. So it is also important to f in the contextual place. So where that relationship between leaders and followers mm-hmm. Uh, take place. It does not take place in a vacuum.

Maureen: So leadership in the Arab Spring would look different than leadership in the French Revolution. Exactly.

Gama: Well, in all other revolution.

Mm-hmm. To come this context also defines the kind of leadership style that, uh, someone would take on. Mm-hmm. So, for instance, well we say that, uh, in the global, the new century, that leadership should be [00:05:00] more. Let’s say, uh, participative and mm-hmm. Or flat organization. Mm-hmm. Which is fine. Mm-hmm. But then let’s put a different context.

The building is on fire.

Maureen: We still need the capacity to do the old out the building, that door control that way.

Gama: Right. So to recognize that. Mm-hmm. Now I’m not saying that it should be, uh, always command and control,

Maureen: but there’s a balance. Exactly. And it’s knowing when to use which skill most effectively.

Gama: And that requires a lot of, for the leader, not just self-awareness, but also. Awareness of the context.

Maureen: You know, this is one of the areas I think people, when they hear this inclusive leadership, they’re afraid that that means that, that they’re not really leading. And what I hear you saying is, in fact, I may lead differently when I’m being inclusive, but I also have to have the [00:06:00] capacity to do all types of leadership and know based on the situation.

Which one goes when.

Gama: Yes. So, uh, skills have to be more. Exactly. Now that can be quite challenging for a leader because you may not have all those skill sets, and it may come to that time when you have to delegate where you say, I, I do not have the skillset to. Deal with this kind of context so somebody else can come in.

Maureen: So either delegation or even co-leadership, right?

Gama: Yes. Or stepping aside. Mm-hmm. And letting somebody else step in and you’re not.

Maureen: Yet some leaders are not very excited about that.

Gama: Exactly. In a way that’s where power, then the issue mm-hmm. Of power. Okay. Uh, comes in. I think that, uh, the, the challenge for the, the leadership field [00:07:00] is to recognize that, uh, it’s not one or the other.

Maureen: Again, it’s a continuum and I need to know which, and to your point, some are gonna feel more comfortable. But how do I strengthen my capacity across the range and from a leadership development perspective?

Gama: You said it beautifully. And and that is exactly in, in terms of, uh, leadership development. What we should be doing, I is to enhance and expand that capacity.

What I’m afraid is, and I’m going to be an Orthodox here. But that’s okay. That I think right now the, the sexy thing is to say participatory. Yeah, participatory and put a lot of emphasis. And then somehow if you take on a more command and control during a time when the context calls for that, that [00:08:00]somehow you’re not a good lever.

Maureen: I think that’s a brilliant point because yeah, we, our, our society has now made it sexy to be participatory. Mm-hmm. And yet I can think of times where that’s really a bad call. I, I was working in an organization that was. In receivership. This was not the time to get input. This was the time to fix the problem.

Yeah. And that took very decisive and unpopular in some cases, action. Because otherwise the enterprise would be no longer, and then no one gets the benefit of anything. Exactly. Exactly.

Gama: So now the fifth, uh, component. So we talked about leaders working together with followers toward moving toward goals in a context.

But then put a circle around all of that.

Maureen: Mm-hmm.

Gama: Is the cultural context. So it’s not just the environmental or the organizational context, [00:09:00]but there are certain values and norms that guide. That relationship.

Maureen: So when you talk about values and norms, I get, I know what those words mean. Are you talking about the organization’s culture, the societal culture?

My industry’s culture? No, global culture.

Gama: Well, the societal, you have the societal culture. Mm-hmm. In terms of, uh, the way that a society holds certain collective. Norms. But then you also have the global dynamic where Right, different societies have different norms. Mm-hmm. Now, what’s so challenging for leadership, uh, today with globalization is that, uh, now you have leaders and followers who may have different values.

They still have to work together.

Maureen: Most likely do.

Gama: Exactly.

Maureen: Either the leader being [00:10:00] on one continent and followers being global. Exactly. Or different ages. We talk about millennials in world wari generation or any varia. I realize these are big buckets, but. Lots of variations where I might have different values than the person walking exactly next to me in the hallway.

Gama: So, for instance, I mean, I, this is a, a, a personal, uh, uh, story that I was born and grew up, uh, in Brazil.

Maureen: Mm-hmm.

Gama: I grew up in this, uh, American Southern Baptist, uh, community. Mm-hmm. That they had developed this seminary. My parents who were Brazilian, they taught in, uh. Uh, that seminary. And so growing up as a kid, I would play with the missionary, the American missionaries kids.

Mm-hmm. But when the parents, the missionaries would not allow the Brazilian kids to go in their homes. So when the kids, if we had [00:11:00] something is said, oh, uh, the, the missionary kid had, oh, I have a toy that, uh mm-hmm. I want to, uh. How it gets for us to play. So we would come in, I would have to stand at the door.

Why? Well, that, that always puzzled me. And now I, I, I never, two possibilities. So one is trust, lack of trust. They, they thought, okay, each kid, can I trust them to come in? Are they going to, uh, steal something or. Are they, uh, beneath, uh, that, uh, they cannot go in because this is there.

Maureen: Neither one of those are a positive.

No. How did that impact you? And I know we’re talking about global culture, and yet here’s an artifact of something that has, that you’re still telling it more than five years later. Means you’ve this more six, five years later. This four.

Gama: But no, but I, I, I think I, I carry [00:12:00] this with me as an example of mm-hmm.

How when different cultures, uh, collide, you have all kinds of dynamic of mm-hmm. Power. The impact that it has on different people.

Maureen: You know, I’m just imagining a totally different story.

Gama: Okay.

Maureen: You come to my front door, I hadn’t been expecting a guest. I don’t invite you in because my crazy uncle’s in the back room and he has Alzheimer’s and his, and may not be dressed.

It has nothing to do with discounting you. Oh, okay. So, so it’s also curious that something happens and we make sense of it based on our view of the world. And we carry that, we carry that forward and it extends. So maybe

Gama: we need to put another circle around the others, the role of perception, uh, how that, uh, no, I, I mentioned that the example just to mm-hmm.

Illustrate that. Now more and more we have to deal with [00:13:00] that component mm-hmm. Of cross-cultural literacy. Mm-hmm. Competencies. But there’s also another one, and I’m writing a book right now. On this topic, uh, that, uh, I, I call the, the global leader. And, uh, that’s a leader who is not necessarily representing a single culture.

Mm-hmm. But it’s a leader who can transcend mm-hmm. That so someone who is comfortable. Many different cultures.

Maureen: Okay. So I’m curious because I was a co-author on a global leader book. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And I think what you’re saying is different than what we talked about. And so it, and it seems very exciting to me.

So we talked about a leader who hails from a country, so from the dress, and then I go learn about these other cultures. Yes. Are you talking about someone who identifies as cross-cultural more than. American. Or Brazilian. Or European,

Gama: right. [00:14:00] No, I, I think it, it, I think in this century it’s that next Okay.

Level of a, a leader.

Maureen: So I, I see my tribe as the global community. Yes. Not flag of the country.

Gama: Yeah. But I’m not talking about the, the world citizen movement, but a way that a leader can, uh, develop his or her own identity. And, uh, be comfortable in different settings. Mm-hmm. So, for instance, right now, if I go to Brazil.

Then people say, oh, you have lived in the United States for over 30 years

Maureen: in Ohio? No. Alaska,

Gama: no, I have just, uh, 17 years. Okay. But no, it’s Texas, Florida, Alabama. So,

Maureen: uh, hey, you haven’t done New York and California.

Gama: I know I need to go out last, but when I go back to Brazil, they say, oh, you’re an American.

But when I’m here, then people say, oh, you’re [00:15:00] Brazilian. So my, my tendencies to say, well, I’m gamma,

Maureen: so is there a way I’ve worked globally? Mm-hmm. But my residence has been predominantly in the US so I haven’t worked as an expat. How if I don’t resign in a country other than where I grew up, do I develop that capability?

I mean, you’ve had the opportunity to live, really develop a dual citizenship in. In your essence.

Gama: Exactly. Well, uh, it, it’s, you don’t go to school and you take a class.

Maureen: I teach a class. They, nobody walks out feeling like they’re a global leader. Uh, hopefully they are more global, but seven weeks not enough to do it to It took you 30

Gama: years to Exactly.

No. You develop that over time. You also, uh, have that opportunity to pick up. Pieces here and there. Mm-hmm. So in, in terms of my family, uh, history, so the last name [00:16:00] is Pucci, so an Italian family. But, uh, my brother, he lives in France. Okay. He’s is, uh, Italian citizen, but, uh, I have family in Brazil. So it, it’s the way that you just weave that different and so

Maureen: multi continental.

Gama: Exactly. Okay. Now, and, and just to add one more point about, uh, what I find exciting about the International Leadership Association to kind of bring us all back

Maureen: mm-hmm. To the

Gama: ILA, is that it gives you that space for all of these different leaders to come together mm-hmm. And share these stories. Share these, uh, experiences.

Maureen: If one of our listeners is interested in becoming more global, so we have listeners from 66 countries and they can’t all get to Atlanta, our Brussels, or some of the Barcelona, how might they go about what’s the next first step?

Gama: I’d like to [00:17:00] turn this around and say, you don’t have a choice. It’s not a, a, a question of saying, how do I become more global?

We are becoming more global individuals. We, we don’t have a choice. I think globalization is just shrinking the world to such an extent that, uh, even in Marietta, I see that now there’s nobody else there from Brazil that I, but there is, uh, a, a cultural richness or, or different, uh. People who are exposed to all kinds of different, uh, cultural norms.

It’s a small town of 14,000. Great town in Ohio, but I feel at home

Maureen: and yet I’m still to, you know, it’s hard not to be embroiled in all of the. Politics that has happened recently. Mm-hmm. And we, we do have people who are just kind of rejecting globalization. Oh, sure, sure. And so I’m, [00:18:00] I’m wanting to speak and just briefly mm-hmm.

To that idea that to be a healthy economic system, no matter which Continent one resides within. It’s important to acknowledge that we are part of a global economic structure. Oh, definitely. And as we’re leading that, we, the enterprises we lead will be much more successful if we embrace that global identity rather than reject it.

A

Gama: a and especially for a, a simply a utilitarian purpose that, uh, you reach more customers and, and it’s a lighter, uh, market. Mm-hmm. But, uh, I think there, there are some leaders. Who try to take advantage of some of these fears. Mm-hmm. And, uh, make a name for himself or herself without mentioning any names to, to stoke that kind of fear in people as they lose.[00:19:00]

Mm-hmm. Some of that,

Maureen: and I’m wanting to respond to that in a nonpolitical way very respectfully. When we offshore jobs, people do lose their jobs here, and that’s a reality.

Gama: Well, they may lose one kind of job, but they may gain another kind of job.

Maureen: And in fact, in Ohio where we both reside, we, we have a huge market where companies like Honda Manufacture.

Mm-hmm. So, so we do have a lot of jobs created because of globalization. Right. It’s not that everyone’s been outsourced and, and we’re left with a donut in the middle.

Gama: Exactly.

Maureen: I guess I’m speaking to people who, who may be concerned that as we globalize they could lose.

Gama: Oh, sure, sure. No, no. And I don’t mean to minimize.

Mm-hmm. Uh, that if you are. 50 years old and then you lose your job. Mm-hmm. And, uh, what are [00:20:00] the chances of going back to school and, and getting the retraining? It is very scary. Especially when you wanna support your family. Exactly. Yourself. Exactly. No, and, and I don’t want to. To minimize that, but at the same time, you don’t hold back industries.

Mm-hmm. Uh, simply because you’re trying to protect. So then that’s a recipe for economic stagnation. Ultimately. I, I think, uh, economic failure.

Maureen: So it sounds like what we need is a more comprehensive approach. To globalization.

Gama: Oh, definitely. And yeah, no, the globalization, the topic itself, we could stand a number of dates.

Yes.

Maureen: Yeah. Sorry for trying to shoehorn in a very complex topic, but I couldn’t resist, especially as a dean of a, a business program, right?

Gama: Well, no. It’s a leadership program that is, uh, based on the liberal arts approach. So we have students from all areas. What we try to do is to get [00:21:00] students to reflect, but also develop leadership skills for all areas in, uh, not just academia, but in the world of work.

Maureen: Thank you, Kawan. This has been just a delight. Oh,

Gama: glad to do it. Thank you. We

Maureen: appreciate your wisdom.

Gama: You’re welcome. Thank you. You

Maureen: are welcome.