Innovating Leadership:
Co-Creating Our Future

Resources:

Our host Maureen Metcalf posts a newsletter every week on LinkedIn. You can subscribe here.

She’s also written several award-winning books on leadership development. You can peruse and purchase them here.

Books we’re reading for fun or personal development right now include:

• Three Rocks: The Story of Ernie Bushmiller, the Man Who Created Nancy by Bill Griffith
• The Five Lost Superpowers: Why We Lost Them & How to Get Them Back by John Reid, et al
• The Parable of the Sower by Octavia Butler
• The Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula K. LeGuin

Other episodes you’ll enjoy:

Guest(s):

Guest(s) Bio:

Gill Robinson Hickman is a Professor of Leadership Studies Emerita at Jepson School of Leadership Studies and winner of the 2016 ILA Lifetime Achievement Award. Compelling common purpose would be three words at the core of Gill’s institution-building work in leadership studies, her life, and her research. As one of the inaugural faculty members of the Jepson School of Leadership Studies, one of the first institutions in the world with a multidisciplinary faculty devoted to the study of leadership, Gill joined forces with her colleagues to build a leadership studies program from the ground up. She published Leading Change in Multiple Contexts which has become a standard in a field that has experienced incredible growth since those first Jepson faculty gathered with their compelling common purpose more than 20 years ago. She grew up as a black woman in Birmingham, Alabama during the Civil Rights era where she experienced the power of people coming together in a common cause.

Jorrit Volkers is Dean of Deloitte University Europe Middle East Africa (DU EMEA), one of the world’s largest consulting firms, Deloitte. DU EMEA designs and delivers a world-class curriculum to develop Deloitte practitioners as trusted business advisors and leaders. Its vision, which Volkers himself exemplifies is to “have a ‘game-changing’ impact on clients and people, and add value to every member firm by embedding a unified culture across borders, functions, and levels.” With only four years of operations, under Volkers’ leadership, DU EMEA has already offered professional and leadership programs to nearly 18,000 participants. The mission is to develop the Deloitte culture, develop skills to serve clients better, and develop people. At the heart of the curriculum is the global leader framework and the seven core competencies Deloitte leaders need: living the purpose, influence, performance drive, strategic direction, talent development, competitive edge, and inspirational leadership.

Transcript
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Unknown Speaker 0:08
I’m your host, Maureen Metcalf, and I’m delighted to be recording live from the International Leadership Association Conference in Atlanta. We talk about the rate of change in our current world. And according to Ray Kurzweil, we anticipate that technology change in this century will be 20,000 times the rate of the last century, and what that really means for leaders is that we will have to metabolize these changes, identify which ones impact our industries, and create solutions. So welcome Cynthia cherry. Cynthia is the CEO of the International Leadership Association. Maureen, it’s good to be here with you again, and I am delighted that we have with us Professor Gail Hickman, and just received, this year at the ILA conference, the ILA Lifetime Achievement Award for all of her phenomenal work in the field of leadership. We also have Herod Volkers, who is the dean of Deloitte University, a CO key noted for the conference around the intersection of theory and practice in the work that Gail does as a theory based perspective. And then your it’s work around practice in leadership. And so you’re with Deloitte University, yeah, okay. Deloitte University EMEA. So I’m responsible for the whole EMEA region, so be interesting to hear what Deloitte does as a consulting firm to invest in leadership development. We are not only consulting, it’s also all a tax and financial advisor in some to a bit broader. But we came to the conclusion that the way people are trained on universities are not enough for them to look at our practices. So we started a whole program of developing trainings for the people who work for us in all levels to educate them about business advisory but special especially about leadership. Okay? And we came to the conclusion that the leadership elements that we have in our trainings are not sufficient enough, and they are not equipping people for the jobs that they have to do. We are now the only ones of the big four who is doing this. Oh, really, yeah. So what is the differentiator you’re choosing to invest in this? We think it’s if we want to be the world’s leading firm, then you need to invest a lot in your people. And this is what we are doing, investing in our people, in the development and yes, from when they enter our company until they are retired, we are also training people just before retirement. So what’s the business case for that? Because they will be our ambassadors after retirement, and most of them retire, so around the 60s, and a lot of people, we have a very good example here,

Unknown Speaker 2:48
who keep working after their retirement, and basically they are in in perhaps the most brilliant phase of their life, because they have so much experience. And that’s what we want to use, also for our own people, but also from for society. So they are potentially hiring you, these people who retire and go on to other Okay? KP, yeah, okay. Or they’re contributing to society exactly because that is one of for us. It’s also very important that we give something back to society. Of course, we make profit, that’s why we are for but we also need to give something back. Thank you. And Gil, tell us a little bit about your background, lifetime achievement, award, massive accomplishment. Yes, that’s overwhelming.

Unknown Speaker 3:33
But my background started in public administration, but I have a emphasis on organizations and organizational theory and behavior. So when I got into the study of leadership, and I started at the Jefferson School of Leadership Studies at University of Richmond, when the school opened, so I was an inaugural faculty member, and we developed the curriculum from the ground up. And the two areas that I developed especially were the areas of leading organizations and leading change. And because there was so little material to change from in those days, we started in 92 Oh, wow, I developed a leading organizations, a textbook with perspectives for new era. So I tried to slant it toward how we would lead organizations into the future, which leans more away from the great man theory and more toward shared and collective leadership, and I developed a framework around which to look at how one would lead in this new era, and it functions on the principle that leaders and followers lead the organization together. And I actually don’t use the word follow. I use the word participant because.

Unknown Speaker 5:00
Is okay. People in this process lean together toward these new futures, especially because the world is so complex that one person really doesn’t have the answers the in the leadership role, at least in today, you need people who know how to gather great minds together to solve difficult problems, and that’s how the text is arranged. So it’s now in this third edition, and so York and I, last year had a conversation around our concepts of leadership and teach leadership, and we are having a wonderful time informing each other from both perspectives. I am a practitioner as well, because I’m a kind of odd academic. I started as a practitioner in the public sector, so I had experience in city government, state government. I had been dean. I always integrated theory and practice in my own work, and I think that’s one of the reasons that you’re and I work well together, because I think we both do that.

Unknown Speaker 6:15
So see a little bit more about how you both do that. Because, as you pointed out, how we teach leadership and how we lead is evolving day by day. What we are looking at is Lloyd, we developed a leadership framework, okay, which was done several years ago. And basically, if you look to the wording, it’s a very good framework. But we came to the conclusion that a framework alone is not enough to really educate people in leadership, and that is leadership from a small team. We heard today that the smallest unit is around 1015, people, okay, until leading the global firm. So if you would apply only that framework, it’s not enough anymore. As we just said, everything is evolving, and also that needs to evolve. So what I started to do is reading Gil’s book, which is, by the way, one of the best books on leadership, because it covers not one theory on leadership. It covers basically all the theories that there are at this moment on leadership. Oh, interesting. Okay, and what we are now currently doing, and that’s a project where Gil is also involved is that we are looking at what kind of leadership do we need to educate people in on which level? And we now came to the conclusion that there are some forms or some theories on leadership that you need at all levels. So for instance, it was we today? We heard in the lecture that listening is something you have to do at all levels. But there are also things, for instance, crisis management, which, of course, you can in a type of team. You can have a crisis, but if you lead a big organization, you need that skill. And what we call now the step ups, that is at the circle level, you need to be educated, not only in the basic skills, but also in the step ups. So this is where I would have a competency model, or something like that, for each level within an organization, and where we then look at this, if I’m, for instance, a manager, senior manager, director of partner, what are the circumstances in which the basics that you need to know how to evolve and what needs to be taught, what we are not doing is one framework, though, you are looking at the complete set that’s out there and that Gil described in her book, and we are now currently figuring figuring out, what do We need, what is really applicant for the situation in which our people books? So can you give some examples of where you have landed on things that are absolutely required, and at which levels you use crisis learning? Tremendous magazine that is to step up, for instance, listening. But also, there is quite some theory now, but it’s get finished about E leadership, and in our organization, a lot of teams never meet each other. They work globally. So what do you need to

Unknown Speaker 9:10
have and teach people on E leadership to make virtual teams successful operating all over the globe? So that is one of the things we are currently very much looking at and that’s another fundamental so listening e leadership, and then we are looking at, what layers do we need to have more to put into the leadership education that we do for our people. So the E leadership idea is interesting, again, having come out of large consulting and working on projects still that are global, what kind of skills do you teach people? Because it’s such a different environment in which to lead than showing up at the office and bumping into people with the coffee machine or at this moment the time? We don’t know yet, okay, because we are working on it. Ah, it is. And this is one of a project that we started last year working to.

Unknown Speaker 10:00
Together to see where we are going to end. So it’s really something of practice and theory. So this is where Theory and Practice will come together. In my book, I have articles about leadership, and I am happy to know a number of people who do research in that area, after meeting with York at his facility, and he and I could see what a vital part of his work environment that was. I contacted a researcher in E leadership, a really top notch researcher, and he will be working with Deloitte to look at their teams, to do research on their teams to see what is working well and what’s not working well. We’re going to take that a bit further. We’re going to combine theorists and practitioners, and we’ll identify some of those very important issues that make these e teams and E leadership work well. This is so exciting for me, because this is what I had always hoped that we could do, have theorists and practitioners work together to solve some problems or add to the knowledge of problems or issues that are important. And this is often not done. Usually, academics live in their world and they do some consulting, and then practitioners live in their world, but these worlds don’t always come together so nicely. So this is very exciting for us, having worked with then smaller consultants and some of the things they put forward, they’re not accurate exactly, and clients not being experts in theory, pay consultants to deliver stuff that I think is of poor quality and can damage their organizations. And the other is the rate of change. How do we know how to upgrade our leadership algorithms in a way that’s research based? Because the research is is just keeping pace with or the world changes, and then we research it exactly. So we need something to research, so that we are creating the solutions as we go. And that is one of the things we use, also the basis of our thinking that we are not going to fix things. But as time changes, environments change, we want to have an agile system which we can easily adapt on the changing generations that come in, but also the changing circumstances that we work in.

Unknown Speaker 12:26
So being from both worlds, I always teach that way. And I teach a course. I used to teach a course on theories and models of leadership. And the way I taught that course is, you would think this is just going to be all academic theory based. But what I would do is I would recruit organizations in the community to have my students come in and do a leadership assessment. And so what they would do is get real world experience, interviewing people in the community organizations or business organizations, and I would have them use the theories that they were learning to apply to what they saw in this environment. And it was just absolutely amazing what came out of this, because students then didn’t think of theories as these abstract concepts, but they could see that some of these worked beautifully and could help organizations get to the next level, and some theories didn’t apply at all. And they could really see the difference. At the end of this they would deliver a leadership assessment to this organization in writing and orally, and these organizations would just be so excited and take this material back and start reframing their whole process where they had problems. And I think this is the way you get students engaged in seeing how those two worlds come together. And the thing that sounds brilliant about that is often students come out of school having memorized a bunch of theories exactly, and they think, I’m going to go in and apply this. And then they’re perplexed when it doesn’t look like what I read in the book. And they’re also terribly disheartened when nobody, like wants to do what they’ve suggested that they just learned in the book. And so we demoralize. We learned that when they go into their internship after they’ve taken this course, that it’s extremely valuable for them, because then they understand, how do I assess the situation? I have some tools to know how to help improve. And the students just find this overwhelmingly valuable, and so they can contribute when they do internships, and they’re not just gophers in the process, and when they go into organizations afterwards, we have 13 students at Deloitte, former students at Deloitte, when they go into these organizations afterwards, they.

Unknown Speaker 15:00
Are ready to really cope. They start ready, which addresses the issue that you’re you talked about earlier, that a lot of students come out of university and then they need to get trained to actually do a job Exactly. And that’s not a problem, because we don’t expect universities to to educate people, especially for our firm, because that’s right, it’s very normal that you need to be

Unknown Speaker 15:25
with your with the people who are coming. And yet it sounds like with the partnership of academics and large companies, not always small companies, there is a way for students to come out more well prepared. Yes, absolutely, we can prepare them technically for the job, but we can prepare them to understand what does leadership really mean in an organization, and what kinds of things have you learned about leadership that you can on the ground start to apply working in a team. They do a lot of work in teams anyway, in our program, but they also go out and do these works in teams, in organizations. So they start at a more developed level than some students. You mentioned something about agility and speed of change. What are you looking at with regard to what you’re changing, with regard to how people lead, or how you’re teaching differently because of the rate of change. Because of the rate of change, if you keep your programs, your development programs, the same way, you will fail ultimately. So what we need to do is permanently look at the programs that we run and refresh them or redesign them or strip them because they are not up to speed anymore, given the circumstances in the marketplace, but also the generations coming in the chat. How often do you need to do that? We are now, currently refreshing our programs every two years, a minor refresh, and every six years a complete refresh. Oh, wow, but that six year might even go back to four years. Okay, as the world accelerates, accelerates faster.

Unknown Speaker 17:10
Jill, you mentioned something about the great man theory, and I have been in an interesting debate with a colleague, so I would love to hear your opinion on what it is, because you mentioned it, and I’m not sure all of our listeners know the term and pros and cons of it. So when people first started to study leadership, which really goes back to the classics and Plato and Aristotle and all of those great thinkers, they looked at the individual leader and what the individual leader could offer. And so the studies were around their characteristics, their leadership style, and that was important, but they were never able to come up with a list of characteristics that all leaders should have. And so then Leadership Studies started to look at leadership from other perspectives, and started to look at things like the context of leadership, the participants in the process, which are leaders and participants or followers. And

Unknown Speaker 18:20
one of the things that I said yesterday is that I was influenced by the Civil Rights leadership and the fact that it was not a leadership of the great man as people think. They think Martin Luther King. He was charismatic. He was the leader. But growing up in Birmingham, Alabama. It was a very collective process. Many people don’t even know that Martin Luther King was recruited to the leadership by a group of women. Really were already leading, and they wanted someone who spoke well and could represent the cause. But people came to the leadership of the civil rights movement because they believed in a common purpose. So my work has been more around people bringing their themselves to the work because they truly believe in the work, and that can be in both the private sector and in the social movement is not just something that you see in civil rights, but when I saw this kind of leadership, I thought there’s something else further than just one person making all the calls and all the decisions. If you use the collective intelligence and commitment of a group have something larger, and you have something on which to base continuous change, because you have people in the group who have even more knowledge about some aspects than you do, and so to bring to organize and develop and.

Unknown Speaker 20:00
Environment where this collective capability can come together is actually one of the important parts about leading in a very changing world, because that way you have a larger pool

Unknown Speaker 20:15
to use to help solve big problems in an environment where we’re all dealing with more complex problems. There isn’t a great man who can solve all of it, no or woman.

Unknown Speaker 20:30
Important in that one, in that respect, is also that a great man is sometimes a great man giving the circumstances time where he lives. It. Martin Luther King was a very good example. But also, actually you looked at on that from the European context, of course, Churchill, yes, Churchill was one of the biggest leaders in wartime, but as soon as the war was over, he was denounced from his Prime Minister because he was not a good leader in peace.

Unknown Speaker 20:58
You have to be very careful with great leaders. Because great leaders also have very often the dark side of leadership, or the wicked leadership, as we call it. And I think if we would only focus, or if we would focus on great men leading our society, I think this is a really important point to reiterate, because I have seen so often people will say and pick whether it’s Gandhi or Patton, both ends of the spectrum, right? I want to be like that,

Unknown Speaker 21:29
and clearly in their contexts, what they did worked, but I wouldn’t want to take all of the attributes of their behavior on either end and assume that I could plug them into any environment in which I currently work, right? Excuse me, it doesn’t mean that leaders don’t matter. They do matter, but they matter as a part of the collective, and each part has a role, and and different people play that role at different points in time. Leaders do matter, but they aren’t the end all and be all of leadership. Leadership is a process of bringing of leaders and followers working together to make something a common purpose happen. I think that’s important for people to keep in mind, especially in this day and time and just thinking of the problems that we face in organizations, back to that idea that no individual can solve it. They’re too complex, they’re too big, and they’re too interconnected. It’s not like my company can solve a problem. I’m connected to 1000s of other members of the ecosystem, and every time I move in one direction, I’m in impacting others in my ecosystem and absent. The word that comes to mind, and this is terrible, is the Macarena. We all

Unknown Speaker 22:52
know we’re dancing one way and the next, and you’ve got one person in the line that goes the wrong way, right? And you bump into people. So not that’s an image any of us want, but even as a professor, and when I have been in positional leadership roles, I’ve seen myself as the convener of the process of bringing together the right people, setting up the right situation in which either learning can occur in my classroom, or that problem solving or reaching a goal can occur, and it’s a very different process from feeling I am just the end all, and we all in charge, but I am in charge of getting work Done, making sure that the work happens, and bringing together the right people to do it. I got a very sweet letter or from one of my alums the other day. They put together a book for me from messages from my students, and one of them said, when I first came into your classroom, you told me that we were all going to do the work that we were all going to do, part of the teaching, learning. Said, at first I thought that was a cop out. And he said, then when we got into it, I realized that I learned so much more by engaging in the process than I would have if you had just lectured to me

Unknown Speaker 24:21
leadership in organizations in that way that there aren’t. It’s not that I want to say I’m going to give up authority to do what I’ve been asked to do, but I want to use that authority to make sure that the work gets done by all the minds that need to contribute to it. I think that’s a critical point. A couple of things you said when I’m a convener, so I still need to know it. I often talk about later as the mind of the scientist. So I still have a hypothesis. I’m still helping design the experiments, and so you’re bringing the right people together in the right way, especially with students.

Unknown Speaker 25:00
And yet, creating the context in which they learn isn’t abdicating right? It’s building their skills. And I think a lot of leaders are still stuck in that mindset that we grew up with, and for those of us over a certain age, we’re unlearning some things right? That that my view when I entered the workforce was the boss was in charge and they were supposed to know what to do. And now bosses are often they’re still in charge, and they still get fired, but they don’t,

Unknown Speaker 25:33
but they don’t always have the answer. We all participate in that process Exactly. And I think one of the because that’s what we had our talks this morning about, that authority is something that is there needed also in a complex society, you need people who take decisions, but you also need to be aware of the fact that the leaders don’t know everything. So they also need to be able to say, I don’t know this, and we have to solve this together, and what we what then, because the biggest mistake that that leaders can make is over promise, because they can promise things that they cannot achieve. And then what we heard today was that the social contract that you then have is broken, and that has serious consequences for the leader, but also for the follow ups. I want to delve into that for the idea of the social contract being broken, because our social contract is changing as we continue as the world changes. So I’m thinking of the idea that any one of us could live to be 100 and yet people retire and they assume that the money they’ve put into the system will support them. And yet my longevity changing impacts the social contract that I should retire at x age. But that contract was negotiated when I was at Little kid, and now I think you are talking about a problem that nobody in this world at this moment has a real answer,

Unknown Speaker 27:01
and every leader who now states that he can solve this problem is lying.

Unknown Speaker 27:07
So one of our presidential candidates, maybe

Unknown Speaker 27:11
we are from Europe, that is, you don’t care about that. We care a lot. We are looking very much to what is going to happen here. Or you have similar issues with every country has people aging now, and the issues of retirement are the same issues everywhere in the world, especially in the Western world, and especially with the interest rates being so low, all the money that you save is now not getting interesting. Well, now the problem is huge, and we didn’t solve it, and nobody can solve it at this world. And all of the great things that are happening in medicine that will extend our lives also create a different challenge for those of us. Again, one of the solutions could be that stop. That

Unknown Speaker 27:55
will not be,

Unknown Speaker 27:58
Please doctor, about,

Unknown Speaker 28:01
yeah, yeah. So bright minds, I’m sure, can come to a different scope, absolutely. And yet the point of social contracts being renegotiated, those things that were true when I came out of college and had an assumption about what retirement looked like, those are not even found on a mobile ball right now,

Unknown Speaker 28:23
and the idea that we need to continue to upgrade our algorithm again, and how we think about it and expect that contract to change. But the truth is changing because the context is constantly changing. That speed is going so fast it’s

Unknown Speaker 28:40
agility is, I think, one of the most important things, also in leadership, agility and adaptability to new situations. So how and teach that not to give away trade secrets for people to be honest? I don’t know yet. Okay, that is a question we are, of course, raising how you teach people to be agile? We know that people from out of their selves are agile.

Unknown Speaker 29:05
People can adapt very easy to different situations, but to get that really into learning schemes, that will be quite a challenge. And organizations and organizations, and one of the people I interview is a brain scientist, and he talks about the importance of we build these neural pathways and they keep us alive, right? So I have a routine of getting dressed when I get up in the morning, and this means I don’t walk out of the house with no clothes on, right? There are good reasons why our brains are built the way they are, and yet they’re almost built in opposition to agility and it was also said today, our brains are formed million years ago, and they now have to operate in an environment that is changing so fast, while our brains are still somewhere in the prehistorics. So do you guys address the neurology and neural bio.

Unknown Speaker 30:00
Technology of, how do we teach leaders? Because it seems like there’s a behavior that is also reinforced by my neural pathways. And as a leadership person, it’s something I talk about, but are not as informed as I’d like to be, and that’s comes for me. Also, people are beginning to study that in Leadership Studies,

Unknown Speaker 30:23
there are articles on evolutionary biology at leadership, and there are people studying the brain and leadership. That’s a new a very new feel, but it’s very important to all the things that you talked about, the fact that people are living longer. Our brains are wired certain ways. But how do you get people oriented to wanting to understand new things that are coming about? And in academia, I think you’re wired to wanting to learn about new things.

Unknown Speaker 30:56
In practice, not always. Right. Learning gets in the way of delivering Yeah, a bill of lovers and such, yeah, and I know I was saying recently that I’m doing some research on leaders in personal crisis, that what do you do if the leader has a personal crisis, how does that leader deal with himself or herself, and how Does the leader deal with the the

Unknown Speaker 31:21
participants and teams. And in order to do that, I had to learn some new software.

Unknown Speaker 31:29
This is really building my capacity, because you have to be willing to say, Okay, I don’t know anything about this, but there’s somebody out there that can help me learn this. And we got a recent graduate from the university who had learned this software to teach me the software. So this is what you have to be willing to help younger generation people, yeah, teach you how to use the things that they grew up with. And you have to be very open to that. And again, that’s a paradigm change from again, my parents, who were supposed to know everything exactly, and now you’ve just won a lifetime achievement in the award, right? And you’re getting help all the time, continuing to learn and unlearn.

Unknown Speaker 32:18
I started doing qualitative research, like interviewing and things like that, when that wasn’t a popular way to research, but since I first began that you now have software that you can input your qualitative research to and really get quantitative information from it. So I had to learn, even though I’ve been doing this kind of work a long time, I had to learn how to do that now using the sophisticated software that we have. So that’s the kind of learning that we have to be willing to do

Unknown Speaker 32:52
as things change, and I find it exciting. But a lot of people, of course, find this is the image of a person that just retired a few years

Unknown Speaker 33:02
she’s still learning, and I think that’s the same what we are doing trainings. You never retire from this, it will be permanently changing, and you have to at some point in time, need to decide, okay, this is what I’m taking into and the rest we wait for new research, what will be done. But we never retire, and many of us won’t get to right or in a traditional sense, well, and I can’t imagine retiring, moving to Florida and playing cards all day. That was something that was prescribed. But the good thing is, you get to invent your next life. You mean you can decide that I’ve had it and I’m going to rest and be in the sun, or you can decide that those research projects that you didn’t get to do while you were working your gap through now, and that’s what I decided. So as we come to a close, I would love to hear from both of you. You guys are global rock stars in this field,

Unknown Speaker 33:58
right? So we thought listeners who don’t get to hang out with you in person, what do you want people to take away from the How did you get here? What did you do to become a Lifetime Achievement person and you were, what did you do to lead, lead EMEA Deloitte University? And these are both massive accomplishments. And so what’s different between you and other folks who haven’t been able to make this level of success? It’s a really hard question to answer, but again, all I can say is I believe strongly in standing on the shoulders of others and learning from them, and then learning from not only people who came before me, but the people who are younger than I am, because you have so much to learn from both sides of that and also never stop learning. Even though technology might look frightening, somebody can break it down to you.

Unknown Speaker 35:00
You. So if there are frightening new technologies or changes developing, dive into it. Don’t be afraid. Even if you What’s the worst thing that can happen? You make mistakes, you can correct them. And with that scientific mindset, it’s just an experiment, right? Failure, it’s just, it may be a poorly designed experiment in my case, and so now life has really become an experiment, because there is no one way to do it. There’s no one way to retire. There’s no one way to have your career. I did my career. Academics would say I did my career backwards. I became a practitioner and then an academic. Oh, actually, I did them simultaneously. Because while I was a practitioner, I was getting my PhD, and when I finished my PhD, I was recruited to academia. So flexibility, as much as you can develop, it is really critical, cool. Thank you, and you’re it be curious, be open minded.

Unknown Speaker 36:01
Set goals, but then if you are in the neighborhood of your goal, set your next goals. If you are disappointed, go on

Unknown Speaker 36:12
and then don’t look back in regret, but look back in what you learned from what you did wrong. I think if you have that mentality, you will come a long way, at least, that is what wouldn’t happen to me. Thank you both. It’s such a pleasure to get to sit here with you in person and have this conversation. Thank you. You.