Innovating Leadership:
Co-Creating Our Future

Resources:

You can contact Mike through LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/morrowfox/.

Our host Maureen Metcalf posts a newsletter every week on LinkedIn. You can subscribe here. 

Maureen’s latest book is Innovative Leadership & Followership in the Age of AI. You’ll find details about it at https://bit.ly/LeaderInAI, or check out the Kindle version at https://amzn.to/44buVz8. The audiobook version is now available at  https://amzn.to/4dTCleZ.

Her other 10 books are available on Amazon here. 

Other episodes with Mike you’ll enjoy:

• Turning Conflict from Avoidance to Advantage
• Let’s Talk: Four Steps to Bridging Workplace, Political, and Family Disagreements
• Growing Up and Out: Development for Modern Leaders

Guest(s):

Guest(s) Bio:

Michael Morrow-Fox, MBA, EdS, is a consultant with the Innovative Leadership Institute experienced in health care, education, banking, government, and non-profit management.

Michael has over 20 years of experience in leading technology and human resources operations, as well as several years of full-time university teaching. Michael uses this background to blend his real-world understanding with current theoretical models helping his clients reach goals beyond their current thinking.

Michael has served as a full-time university faculty at Capital, as the Director of Technology Strategy for the OhioHealth Hospitals, as the Vice President of Operations for a technology start-up serving American Express, as the Vice President of Talent Management Training and Development for the American Heart Association, and the Manager of Organizational Education for the City of Greensboro, North Carolina.

Michael is a contributing author of Innovative Leadership for Health Care, Innovative Leadership Workbook for Emerging Leaders and Managers, and the Innovative Leader Guide to Transforming Organizations.

Transcript
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Maureen: [00:00:00] I’m your host, Maureen Metcalf. I am delighted to introduce you to Mike Morrow-Fox. Mike has worked in leading technology and human resources operations for healthcare, education, banking, and nonprofit organizations , as well as several years in university teaching. Mike is going to talk to us a little bit about what is a bad boss, how do I know if I am one, and what is the antidote if I am one. 

Mike: Well, thank you, Maureen. It’s a pleasure to be with you today, and I’m very excited about the topic. As you know, I’m really passionate about bosses and the differentiation between leadership and bosses, because there’s so much out there about leadership and management , and yet when we go out to eat with our friends, what they’re really talking about is bosses. 

The adage really rings true that people join organizations, but they leave their direct managers, which are their bosses. 

And I think if somebody is listening to this, you may start to hear some of the things that differentiate your boss and maybe some clues as to how they may improve a little bit. 

The other [00:01:00] side of that coin is everybody thinks they’re a good boss, and some people will be listening to it thinking, “I’d like to become a better boss,” and so they’ll get some tips there, too. So that’s where we’re going today.  

Maureen: Give us some ideas of what you think bad bosses compared to good bosses. Some of the Gallup data on people are most likely to be disengaged if their manager or boss is just not engaged with them. 

Mike: So this is one of the most interesting pieces because I find a lot of really good leaders stick to the adage, “You know what? I hire good people and get out of their way.” I’ve had a personal experience; the one that sticks out most in my mind was: I worked with a wonderful guy. 

And when we talk about good leaders, he set a good cultural tone. He had a good strategic vision. Remember, though, that the boss is the employee’s conduit into the larger organization. That’s their doorway, and he was really bad at that. And so he had a number of technology employees, a couple of [00:02:00] whom did some really phenomenal programmatics for the organization, that the organization became heavily reliant upon. 

And he used to say, “You know, I, I’m not gonna tell them how to do it or what to do it or why they should do it. I’m gonna get out of their way. I let my people do what they wanna do.” And what happened was, one by one, they left the organization and took all their technology knowledge with them. So as an organization, we were left with these wonderful programs and no ability to update them or to fix them when they broke. 

And I remember that distinctly, thinking maybe this “leave them alone” doesn’t work so well. You know, the Gallup stuff, they did a piece called Driving Engagement by Focusing on Strengths, if that’s what you wanna Google. But here’s the most amazing thing that they found. 

When they surveyed over 1,000 employees, they had employees respond, and the first thing they responded to was, “My boss focuses on my weaknesses or negative characteristics.” And what they found was almost half, about 45% of the employees that said, “Yes, I strongly [00:03:00] agree with that,” those people were actually highly engaged. 

By focusing on someone’s weaknesses, by saying, “Hey, Mike, I don’t think you write so well. I want you to keep improving your writing,” those people actually had almost a 50% engagement rate. If I look at the flip side of that coin, of those people that said, “You know what? My boss doesn’t really focus on my weaknesses or my strengths,” about 25% of those people surveyed felt like they were left to do what they wanted to do. And what we found was only 2% of those employees were engaged. 

I wanna contrast that because if we wanna talk about being a great boss, that’s a very active process. And the one question that really stands out here is, “My boss focuses on my strengths or positive characteristics,” 61% of those employees were engaged. 

That’s a huge difference. So by letting my employees do their own thing, saying, “You know what?” Especially if I’m in a sales force, there’s a tendency to say, “You know what? They’re [00:04:00] out there in the field. Let them do their own thing. Get their numbers. If they’re getting their numbers, I’m leaving them alone.” That doesn’t work so well. What really works well is getting to know them, complimenting them on what they’re doing right, helping them develop themselves around the strengths that they come with, and helping them utilize those strengths to go further with their customers and with the organization. 

I’ll tell you another piece here that I love, and that is there’s a guy by the name of William Phelps who’s done all kinds of research because his wife came home one day. And she said, “I’m having a great week at work.” 

And he said, “Really? What’s going on?” She said, “Oh, so-and-so’s out sick. We’re getting twice as much done.” He was surprised. And so he did some research, and the research that he did, there was a wonderful piece published that was called “How, When and Why Bad Apples Spoil the Barrel- Negative Group Members and Dysfunctional Groups.” 

So these disengaged employees, Phelps and a group studied them, and what he found was when they got an actor to play a disengaged employee, what [00:05:00] he found was that almost universally, those groups had 30% lower productivity than the groups that didn’t have a disengaged employee. 

What his wife intuitively felt was, you know, when we had this negative guy going, “Oh, that’s already been done,” or “That won’t work,” or those sorts of things, when we have those disengaged employees around, they draw the whole group down. And the best way to make sure as a boss that I don’t have my employees dealing with those disengaged employees is to focus on my employees’ strengths. 

I’ve got six times greater engagement rates than those people who were left to do their own thing, and only 1% disengagement rates. For a lot of bosses, that’s a huge change in mindset.  

Maureen: So if I were to do one thing as a boss, it would be connecting with their strengths. 

And then the other thing I heard was that employees who are actively disruptive significantly [00:06:00] contributes to the downward spiral.  

Mike: Yeah, both of those things are absolutely correct, and it’s really interesting because if I’m a boss, I’m gonna be thinking about two things from this conversation. 

The first one is, would my employees say, “Yes, my boss focuses on my strengths”? If the answer isn’t yes to that, I’ve got some work to do. And number two, if I can think in my mind of so-and-so, and so-and-so’s not stealing, and they’re not hurting anything, they’re just showing up, but they’ve got this negative energy that they bring. 

Their mantra is, “I don’t live to work, I work to live,” and they’ve got kind of this negative air, they draw the entire group down. They take away the innovation, the creativity, and the energy of the group, and the research is by about 30%. 

Maureen: 30%. If I’m a disengaged boss, my disengagement , because of my belief system, drives employees to be less engaged.  

Mike: Actively discon- engaged people, [00:07:00] although the language isn’t specifically like this, draw down the productivity of the group by about a third. So i- it’s a big deal to just let your employees do their thing, and especially if their doing their thing is coming in, being negative, and going home. 

Maureen: So instead of hiring more people, I could just get the ones who are there more engaged. 

Mike: That’s absolutely correct. And the research on engagement all the way around is like that. If you have one engaged employee, really you’ll find the productivity of, depending on what research you read, they’ll do the work of up to three employees, and they’ll do it in a more innovative way. 

So you really wanna work on that engagement, and I would say that if you can only do one thing on engagement, one of the most impactful things you can do is focus on employee strengths and have them feel that you’re focusing on their strengths.  

Maureen: So let me just clarify. 

Engaged employees can do up to the work of three people.  

Mike: Yeah, it depends what literature you’re reading, but a few different studies, a Harvard study in particular, took a look at [00:08:00] engaged employees being up to 300% more productive than disengaged employees. 

And I’m not sure if you compare engaged employees versus unengaged employees. But if you look around, I think in general as a manager, a rule of thumb would be I’m gonna get between a quarter and a third more productivity out of those employees that are engaged. 

Maureen: This sounds significant to me. If I am in the bucket that I have more to do than reasonable human beings can ever get done, my biggest lever for limited additional cost is focusing on my employees’ strengths .  

Mike: Yeah  

Maureen: And that doesn’t cost me any money. It just means I’m, changed some behavior.  

Mike: I think that’s very fair. 

Yeah, absolutely. You know, it’s funny too, a lot of companies are now instituting development plans as part of their year annual reviews, and most of those development plans focuses on weaknesses. If employees felt those development plans were focusing on and [00:09:00] developing strengths, and could feel that pulled through throughout the course of the year, it would be interesting. 

But, if you look at the research, I would not be surprised to find, again, you would get a bounce in productivity from those employees.  

Maureen: So Mike, why don’t you tell us something else that differentiates good bosses from bad bosses?  

Mike: Uh, well, another one that pops out of the research pretty clearly is an interesting one, and I bet you run into this with your practice all the time. 

A lot of people are really busy with day-to-day operations, and so a lot of times what a boss will focus on is what’s going on in the day-to-day and keeping the day-to-day rolling. I don’t know if that’s what you find within your practice, but that’s what I find a lot when I’m dealing with consulting. 

Maureen: I do, and most people think that’s their job. And they think that’s the whole of their job , not a key component, but there are additional things I need to focus on. So some clients will come to me and say, “Help me learn to [00:10:00] be more strategic,” ‘ cause I know that’s part of my job, too . So tell us what great bosses do. 

Mike: Well, it’s interesting, because what we find is a few different things about great bosses. So when I, I find somebody and as they evaluate what they’re doing over the course of their 40, 50, 60-hour week, really great bosses are only dealing with their operations maybe about 60% of that time. 

What they’re doing with the other 40% of that time is, number one, really good bosses are dealing with developing their employees. So the Corporate Leadership Council has done a study, and what they found was that the most effective organizations have their leaders spend 30% more time on issues dealing with developing employees than those lower productivity and lower profitability organizations. 

That’s a big deal. So one of the things as you’re dealing with consulting is, is that y- you have to ask how much time are you [00:11:00] spending actively working on the agendas and developing your employees?  

Maureen: Some people seem to almost be pre-wired that of course part of what I do is ongoing improvement. 

Others seem like it’s something I value, but it never takes front seat. It continues to get bumped off my agenda. So I look at organizations like Anderson Consulting, Accenture, where it was built into the fabric of the organization that we spent two weeks a year, if not more, in training at the training center. 

As we hit manager and s- senior manager and above, we also spent time delivering training at their centers. And also built in was we had news feeds every morning. If you weren’t learning in that organization, you were actively avoiding learning.  

Mike: And I think that’s great. Uh, I mean, those organizations, especially during today’s climate of business, those organizations tend to do the best. 

However, I wanna take it a step further, and you’re [00:12:00] talking about trainings, which are formal events, and you’re talking about learning and calls and that kind of stuff. But the question is, how much time is the boss spending relating with the employee and working with the employee? Because again, I may be going to training and learning a bunch of technical skills, that’s all great stuff. 

Yeah. But what we find is for those employees and those organizations that are of the highest caliber, their boss is actually spending time with them. You know, it’s an interesting thing that Malcolm Knowles did a, a bunch of research to find what’s the difference between adult learners and younger learners, ’cause there’s a big difference in the way that they learn. 

And of four- Mm-hmm … characteristics, one that he found was that adult learners need to be involved in the planning of their learning. In his writing, what he talks a little bit about is really that you have to get to the why are we doing this and what are we trying to accomplish so that they can set their own table in the learning experience. 

And the same thing is true of work. Since [00:13:00] work really involves, these days in particular, a lot of change management, a really good boss versus a bad boss is someone who is constantly saying, “Hey, here’s what we’re doing, and by the way, here’s why we’re doing it. How does this affect you? What do you think about it?” And really has a dialogue with their employees. “ 

Maureen: So again, to go back to what would I do if I’m a good boss, I sit down, we do development plans, so here are my goals for the year. And to deliver on these goals, I have to develop in these ways . In addition, I have personal goals for next steps and I am also committing to building on my strengths and dealing with any deficiencies ,. Is that kinda what you’re saying?  

Mike: That’s a part of it. And again, you’re bringing in some good points. So there’s, for example, a formal part like my development planning that might happen during an annual review time. 

But from year to year between those development plans, how are we relating? How is the employee and [00:14:00] the boss really having a dialogue, a relationship? Does my opinion really seem to count because I’m asked it a number of different times? Does my boss really value me as a person as well as someone who brings in numbers? 

And again, we’ll have a lot of people listening who are in sales organizations and these are huge issues because when I talk with salespeople and I interview in companies to find out what’s going on with their employees, what a lot of them tell me is, “I just do what I’m told,” or, you know, “I, I make my numbers, they leave me alone.” 

And they’re waiting for that next job where they’re gonna take their customers or whatever. If they get a, a 2% higher commission, they’re gone because they don’t have any conduit into the organization. So what I’m really saying here is, is that you’re right. The training events are huge. The formal events are huge in terms of annual recognition. 

But what I’m saying is, is that beyond focusing on somebody’s strengths, it’s having a relationship with them and making sure that they understand [00:15:00] why we’re doing what we’re doing and making sure that their opinion on how we’re doing it and what we’re doing counts.  

Maureen: Many companies are either doing away with or significantly altering their performance management process, supporting what you’re saying, that I can’t get feedback once a year and feel engaged. 

Mike: Yeah, that’s a great point because really we have to be thinking about not just the operations, but actually management itself as its own contact sport. 

Why people have so many bad bosses, why people are so disenfranchised with their bosses is because their bosses are focused on the operations instead of being great bosses. And I think the interesting part too, and you can really comment on this from your coaching, it gets worse the higher up the ladder you go , and yet it’s more necessary. 

So if I am a vice president, my boss doesn’t think of himself as a boss. He thinks of himself as a leader. He’s not worried about my development or, you know, all that kind of stuff. I, I’ve got my own division. He thinks I’ve matured beyond that. Where the truth is, is that I [00:16:00] probably need more coaching, more engagement, more focus on development as a VP than I did when I was just a, a supervisor with two employees or an individual contributor just working with customers . 

Maureen: That’s where I do a lot of my coaching, is senior people who are in those roles ’cause they’re highly competent. And the issue I see as most prominent is building political savvy, but also your point about conduit to the organization . I need input to build my algorithm to be more savvy.  

Mike: The way that I try and frame it with my leadership clients too is that one of the most important things they can be really focusing on is: am I helping my employees build their confidence? 

I should have that as one of my goals. Everybody who I manage should feel more confident when they leave my employ than they did before. Uh-huh. And if they’re leaving even more competent but not more confident, we [00:17:00] lose. Ray Kurzweil wrote a wonderful paper called “The Law of Accelerating Returns.” 

He’s done a lot of futuristic work and some great stuff. If you Google “The Law of Accelerating Returns,” you’ll have to read it like five times ’cause it’s just got so much in it and it’s a little complex. But here’s a line from it that’s just amazing. He says, “It won’t be 100 years of progress in the 21st century. It’ll be 20,000 years of progress in the 21st century.” And he spends a whole paper backing up why it’s gonna be so much progress, and the reason is is that we’re gonna have lots of change. We’re already experiencing it. Our employees need us to help partner with them to deal with the fact that it just turns upside down every other day.  

Maureen: So part of that is also personal resilience. 

How do I personally, as a human being, and then as a leader, navigate the volume of change that is happening in my own personal life?  

Mike: That’s correct, and in order to do it, you gotta be a fairly confident person, [00:18:00] especially if you’ve got a large budget and a bunch of people who depend on you to get their job done. 

So at every level, people need confidence, and they need someone to help them build that confidence, and I become confident when somebody focuses on my strength, when somebody is helping me prioritize, when somebody really goes beyond daily operations to say, “How are you doing with this? How are you doing with that? Have I gotten you some experience over here? Have I got you involved with this? Can you give me your opinion on that?” 

Those are the type of conversations that really are important, and there are certain events that occur, and I’m sure you know this, Maureen, there are certain times when you have an event and you have to talk with somebody. You got a big deal in your company, your personal life, whatever. You don’t have that conversation as the first crucial conversation. You have it as the 15th crucial conversation.  

Maureen: Yeah.  

Mike: Once you’ve tested the water and you guys have had a number of good conversations, you feel comfortable to come in and say, “I’m getting a divorce, and I’m just having trouble concentrating today.” 

Without being able to say [00:19:00] that, my performance may suffer, and I, I may lose a lot of ground where I just need a little bit bolstering for a period of time, and yet I don’t have the comfort level to say that, the confidence to go through it, unless I’ve had four or five really close discussions with my boss so that I feel a comfort level to get at that. 

Maureen: The guidance I give is where at all possible, it shouldn’t be a crucial conversation. If I’m having the conversations early and often , if you and I are talking, I can say, “Hey Mike, this was upsetting to me,” or something like that, and we then talk about how do we course correct. 

Maybe I’m being too sensitive but it’s a relatively minor adjustment given that we have built a foundation of trust.  

Mike: Yeah, and I think that’s a very good way to put it, because it really is that foundation of trust that really builds everything from it. But as a boss, I’m constantly really thinking to myself because I’ve got a lot of ideas, I’ve got a lot of things that I have to get done and a lot of [00:20:00] things that I wanna get done, so I’m constantly asking myself, “How much space am I taking up in this relationship?” 

And if I’m taking up a lot of space, nobody feels confident. They go and do what they’re told, they go and do what they think I want, but they really haven’t developed themselves. If I pull myself out of that, or if they pull themselves out of that, are they more confident people? It’s really a worthwhile question to ask, because that’s at the core of engagement and development. 

Maureen: Confidence versus egotistical versus humble. I want people to be confident but humble. It is my role to build confident employees, and yet there have been times that I have attempted to help people be confident , and what results is egotistical, not confident.  

Mike: Yeah. You know, and, and I struggle with this a little bit too, because on the flip side of humility, one of the things that I always have to be aware of as a boss is that there are some folks who are humble in a way that’s not helpful for them or the organization. 

And in [00:21:00] particular I think that we’ve seen some good research come out right now that women in particular tend to be humble and not lean into things, and allow somebody else to take it, as opposed to talking up their own strengths or going in where they can do a better job. I think that’s why some of this is so important that we really focus on confidence. So you’ve talked about you’ve tried to help somebody become confident, and unfortunately they’ve gone off the rails and become egotistical, and I think that certainly is the fear of a lot of managers. Your point is one that a lot of people have as a fear. If I try and help somebody feel more confident, how do I avoid them becoming egotistical?  

Maureen: Help me understand, Mike, a little bit more about your recommendations with regard to balancing and working with this kind of polarity. 

Mike: Yeah, and I really appreciate the topic because one of the concerns that comes up all the time around recognition or strengths-based development or building confidence is: I’m just gonna have these big-headed [00:22:00] employees who are gonna run around, do the wrong thing, and feel great about themselves rather than focusing on their work. 

That’s a very real concern of a number of people. So let’s talk about where humility and confidence intersect. One of the ways that they intersect is that people who are both humble and confident at the same time really do a lot of back-and-forth checking. So I may lean into a problem, but the way that I lean into it is not to take control of it, micromanage it, or force it. 

The way that I lean into it is to say, “I have an idea. What do you think?” And to then have a critical analysis that’s enough to get us to the next step. So what I’m gonna be doing is helping my employees become confident in their ability to facilitate critical analysis, to facilitate rewarding other people, to feel comfortable in what they know, but also to be confident in what they don’t know. 

Because really humble, confident people say, “You know, that’s a great point. [00:23:00] Can we research this or can I rely on you for this? Because it’s not my strong suit.”  

Maureen: So you’re saying that if I am truly confident, then I am comfortable enough in my own abilities and also to acknowledge my gaps and seek input. 

Mike: That’s exactly correct. There’s a learning that takes place back and forth between the boss and the employee. If I’m turning out a bunch of egotists, then what I’m learning as a boss is, is that I’m probably not developing very well. 

At the same time, the employees may be mislearning, and it’s a back and forth. 

But by focusing on somebody’s strengths, that doesn’t mean that I don’t also, when unfortunately there’s something going on, I don’t address it. It means that my employees know that I can tell that they are really good at developing relationships with their customers, if they are, and that I’m primarily focused on that strength and utilizing it in a number of different ways. 

And when they’re not showing up on time, or their paperwork isn’t good, or any one of those [00:24:00] ancillary things are there, we’re discussing them. We’re dealing with them. Mm-hmm. But they really feel like, “Yeah, that stuff is going on, but my boss really is focusing on my strengths. And as well, my boss feels comfortable for me to take the wheel for a while.” 

That’s where the confidence comes from. “My boss knows that I’ll ask the good questions and facilitate the good group and do those sorts of things.” So in the beginning, I’m confident because I’m flying under somebody else’s flag. They’re helping me feel like I can’t do it too wrong. And in the end, they’re able to fly under their own flag and teach somebody else to fly under somebody else’s flag. 

It’s a founded fear because as a boss, I may not be so good yet at helping employees gain that blend of true confidence and humility. But as I get better at it, and they get better at it, that’s what you end up with, and it’s a really worthwhile thing because if I ask myself, “Are my employees becoming more confident because they’re working for me ?” 

If I think to myself, they wouldn’t say yes to that, I’ve got a problem as a boss. They’re probably not as productive [00:25:00] as they should be, they’re not as happy, they’re not as engaged, and they’re not gonna be able to assume the leadership mantle when both of us move to the next level.  

Maureen: Well, and it’s what inhibits both of us from moving to the next level. 

Mike: Absolutely, which kinda brings us into the next piece here, and that is one of the differentiators between really good bosses and those that aren’t so good are recognition. So there’s been a couple of really good studies. 

Towers Watson has done a couple of really big ones. One that they’ve got that’s a reference for people listening is “Tracking People Priorities and Trends in High Performance Companies.” It’s a mouthful, but if you’re tracking people and priorities, you Google that, what you’re gonna find is, is looking across a variety of different business groups: 26 different companies over a five-year study. 

There were four differentiators between those companies that did extremely well and those that didn’t. Three of them make sense. You know, one of them is leadership, one of them is career development, and one of them is empowerment, and I think a lot of managers know that. But rewards and recognition was the [00:26:00] fourth. 

And for those great companies, my supervisor values my contribution, and this company makes adequate use of recognition and rewards other than money to encourage good performance. Those are key indicators for great bosses and great companies. A lot of bosses are afraid to do too much recognition. You know, everybody gets a trophy. 

But we gotta make it special. But what we’ll find is for transformational leaders, they don’t wait until you get that big sale to reward you. They’re constantly involved in rewarding and recognizing on a formal and informal level.  

Maureen: Okay, so recognize on a formal and informal. So what’s an informal level? 

Mike: The informal level is we have our conference call, and I started by saying, “You know, I just wanna take a second and say, “I know Maureen put in an extra five hours with that customer on a Saturday, and a polite round of applause because I know she’s always going that extra mile, and I appreciate it.” 

Maureen: With one of my clients, we do a quarterly leadership [00:27:00] team for a couple of cohorts, and we start with wins. It’s that stuff.  

Mike: Yes, and here’s the key for people who are listening. When was the last time I did that? ‘Cause if it was more than a week or two ago, it’s too long. Great bosses are doing that on a regular basis. 

They’re catching their employees doing something special and rewarding them for it, and it’s not a quid pro quo reward. That’s transactional bosses. For those people that are really effective bosses, for the greatest leaders and the greatest bosses, what they’re doing is they’re constantly noticing somebody’s doing something that’s either great or above and beyond, and they’re bringing it up. 

Maureen: So one of the pieces of guidance I give most often, is as a leader or a boss, I should be making six compliments a day, six positive statements. If I’m not building the habit, then I’m unlikely to be doing it.  

Mike: That’s great. It’s a great way to live. It’s a great thing to think about, and it’d be great to have a side notebook where you tick them off.  

Maureen: I think some of my guys [00:28:00] actually did. That’s great. Just, just because we’re starting, and I wanna build the habit. Once it’s a habit and I, I walk around looking, noticing what’s positive, and not only do I notice it, but I say it versus the mindset that says, ” You’re paid to show up to work. Really, I have to tell you thank you for being here today?” The statistics say yes, actually, not thank you for showing up, but thank you for doing something well.  

Mike: And it oftentimes may be a little thing. Sometimes it’s a big thing, but either way, yeah. And I think you’re exactly correct that there’s a lot of folks who are like, “Hey, I’m busy with my work, and they’re getting a paycheck, and come on now. These are just soft skills. What are we doing?” But when we take a look at high-recognition companies, they have six times greater earnings than low-recognition companies. That’s something where you have to say, “Okay, if my sales force can be six times more productive, maybe I just need to say, ‘Hey, I really appreciate the way that you listened to that client quietly while they were explaining what they wanted,’ ’cause [00:29:00] I know that’s gonna be a sale later.” 

Those are the types of conversations that should be taking place all the time, and I love your rule of six times a day I better be finding somebody doing something right and telling them thank you for it.  

Maureen: If it’s six times a day, they haven’t changed the world, they haven’t cured cancer, but we’re creating a culture of positivity where people are also not afraid to try something new, that I am more likely to catch them doing something right than catch them doing something wrong. 

Mike: That’s a great point.  

Maureen: So then it ties into the feedback, where I can say, “Hey, you know I really value what you’re doing, and it would help if you notched this one up a little bit.” Rather than now it’s not a crucial conversation, it’s a passing conversation.  

Mike: Absolutely.  

Maureen: So what else about great bosses? 

Mike: We’ve covered a lot of it and kind of bundled it together, but if we take a look at the research, you know, what we’ve really said today is there’s four things I can focus on. If my employee doesn’t think that I’m focusing on their strengths, I’ve got work to do. If my employee doesn’t feel like they’re more confident ’cause they’re working [00:30:00] to me, I’ve got work to do. 

If my employee hasn’t been recognized on a regular basis, I’ve got work to do. And by the way, they have to feel like they’ve been recognized on a regular basis. And if I am not involving my employee in regular conversations, asking their opinion and getting their ideas, I’ve got work to do. 

Now, I think the next phase of this then, Maureen, is: okay, if I’ve got work to do, what is that work and how do I do it?  

Maureen: So let’s go there.  

Mike: I think what people have to do are a few things. Number one, if I find that I’m not doing those things naturally or that I listen to this podcast, I make a commitment to do it more, and then two weeks goes by and I haven’t done it, one of the things I can do is the most successful people get a trusted coach , and we call this action inquiry, but use a method of development where I’m not talking about my childhood, but what I’m talking about is I’m talking about a, a problem and working with somebody to solve it, and it’s really changing my paradigm. 

It’s changing my point of view.  

Maureen: So this is the thing I talk about when I say the mind of the scientist. Yeah. That [00:31:00] I have a hypothesis. I try a new behavior, and I learn from it.  

Mike: Yeah, and if your audience was to Google “action inquiry,” there’s a lot of really good stuff on it, but I’m looking for someone who I can trust who can really help me with action inquiry as a method of development. 

A second thing I can do is I can get a 360 assessment to identify my strengths and gaps. In the larger corporations, I, I may have undertaken this before, where I get feedback that’s anonymous from my boss and from my employees and from my colleagues and from my customers. That’s why we call it 360. It’s that whole thing there. But in a small business, a lot of times we don’t get it, and so you can get ahold of somebody and have them facilitate it and someone who knows about 360s, you can do it through SurveyMonkey. Or you can get a formal one from one of the larger organizations. 

Either way, getting that feedback will really help me change a paradigm and really help me understand what may be going on that’s keeping me from doing some of these things. A third thing I can do is I can take a look at whether or not I really want to be a great boss. A lot of people [00:32:00] don’t want to build somebody else’s confidence or give compliments or get close to people. 

They want to get work done, and we call those great individual contributors. And they should be out making sales or out, uh, digging ditches or whatever they should be… but they shouldn’t be managing other people. They shouldn’t be somebody’s boss. And if I don’t have a passion to be a great boss, I really need to think, “You know what? Maybe I should be an individual contributor.” And it’s a worthwhile thing to look at because I’ll be twice as successful if I was built to be an individual contributor as a great individual contributor than I will be as a manager and leader if I wasn’t meant to be a great boss. 

One that I always recommend, Maureen, is that for a lot of folks it’s going into therapy with a psychologist because at the core of some of this stuff is an uncomfortableness with my own ability to trust, and if I don’t have the ability to trust, I can’t do a lot of this other stuff, and I have to work that through with a psychologist on a personal level. 

Have you run into that at all?  

Maureen: I personally have worked with a psychologist and in fact she contributed to the early foundation of our work. [00:33:00] So I realized that I’m supposed to be getting myself better. 

But part of what we processed through was how do we think about who we are? And the foundation of our entire Innovative Leadership work is largely know myself and improve myself, and for a lot of us, psychotherapy is a highly respected and important element to look at those parts of me that aren’t functioning as well and just address them. 

It’s not a sign of being broken. In fact, it’s a sign of wisdom.  

Mike: That’s a great place to leave off. I’ve really appreciated you bringing up the topic and being able to be a part of the show today. Thank you.  

Maureen: Thank you for joining us.